Kino and DVD Beaver

[Kinsayder]

Not trying to be a smartass, but this sounds like a recipe for a Kino appreciation website. Why not start up such a niche site dedicated to highlighting these special, singular releases? DVDBeaver doesn't have to do it all, right? I think it would be an excellent complement to the Beaver, and a starting point for those just discovering or looking to get into more silent film. Why not, right?

Silent Era may be the site you're looking for.

[exte]

I meant in terms of screengrabs...

[HerrSchreck]

The idea here was to correct misinformation that leads to the taking of bread out of somebody's mouth.. meaning Kino. Blindisiding a company for releasing a silent film interlaced is technically misinformed (it cannot be done in the bulk of the case, and in the very few cases that it can, few do), and leads freshman cineaste snobkids to sniff down their noses and turn the whole affair into a laughingstock to Those Who Know. I'm trying to bring some air into the disinformative fog that's been in the existing process which has misled and puffed out the collective chests of so many people.

There is also a very very strong sense in the silent film movement-- which trickles down from the MoMa-- that says "DO NOT FUCK WITH A HISTORICAL DOCUMENT". Thus you will almost NEVER see MTI'ing of silents, (sales on typical projects make it prohibitive to hire a noodler in a digital lab with a virtual scrach eraser, anyhow... it just isn't done 95% of the time in silent film beyond stuff like the superhipfamous METROPOLIS which was not only shot into fucking outer space as a part of a multimedia earth greeting card to little purple-grey Throbulaks from the planet Flumpus, and here on earth runs like a standard revival film with huge revenues and thus justifies the budget), and excessive edge enhancement, (look, we're not talking a 16x9 image here) or contrast boosting. This is why, except for PANDORA, you see speckles & dirt on even HAXAN, & NANOOK. Fucking with a silent film beyond chemical restoration in the lab, and wetgating the dust & scratches in telecine, makes you a bit of an industrial and historical philistine.

This issue in silents-- and therefore this amped up expectation because of the example of hugely manipulated modern CC & WB transfers creating a non-filmic expectation in the average, uninformed viewer-- is the exact equivalent of the issue of vintage color which kicked off this whole discussion for me. THIS IS A VARIATION ON THE PHILOSOPHICAL STANDPOINT I MENTIONED WHEN KICKING THIS OFF. Messing with Techicolor films is no less gross than boosting and enhancing and Adobe-pencil-erasing a silent film. When transfers are archeological exhibitions of genuine vintage film in their true historical state, with no manipulation, they get slammed. It's true in Technicolor and it's evident in silents. CC has created this set of fucking expectations (it's silent and interlaced! It sucks! DAMN YOU KINO!!!) that are exasperating.

[Gary Tooze]

The idea here was to correct misinformation that leads to the taking of bread out of somebody's mouth.. meaning Kino.

????
No. Actually one of the ideas here is to pass along information that, at times, STOPS companies like Kino from, essentially, thieving money from consumers pockets.

May I request that you take these passionate and long winded posts to their own thread. Obstensively this is for discussion of specific DVD comparisons that we do and it allows people to receive updates of said. I find much of you are saying very amusing Herr Schreck but am starting to resent the hijacking. Thank you.
Regards,
Gary

[peerpee]

I sympathise very much with those that would like to see Kino's discs reviewed at DVDBeaver. The films are undoubtedly much more worthy/interesting to fans of classic cinema than the majority of screengrab-less Blu-Ray/HD-DVD reviews that are going up (A FEW GOOD MEN, ERIN BROCKOVICH, SPEED, SCENT OF A WOMAN, NOTTING HILL, TOP GUN, TROY) and I'm probably not the only one infinitely more interested in Kino's silent releases than I am in how A MIGHTY HEART or DEATH PROOF fare on SD-DVD.

If Kino's sole interest were to "thieve money from consumer's pockets" they wouldn't be releasing the films they do -- many of which are not available elsewhere.

The general thrust here seems to be that DVDBeaver doesn't have to like Kino, but Kino's discs at least deserve to be reviewed.

My tuppence.

[125100]

I'm probably not the only one infinitely more interested in Kino's silent releases than I am in how DEATH PROOF fares on SD-DVD.

Lunacy ! ! ! !

[Steven H]

The general thrust here seems to be that DVDBeaver doesn't have to like Kino, but Kino's discs at least deserve to be reviewed.

Seconded! There isn't another company on Earth that does more for the reputation and distribution of silent films. Am I right?

[HerrSchreck]

The idea here was to correct misinformation that leads to the taking of bread out of somebody's mouth.. meaning Kino.

No. Actually one of the ideas here is to pass along information that, at times, STOPS companies like Kino from, essentially, thieving money from consumers pockets.

May I request that you take these passionate and long winded posts to their own thread. Obstensively this is for discussion of specific DVD comparisons that we do and it allows people to receive updates of said. I find much of you are saying very amusing Herr Schreck but am starting to resent the hijacking.

I knew this would happen.

So here ends the discussion with no progress. SO much for raising questions and getting them answered square on. JUDEX/VAMPIRES, interlacing of silent film vs the possibility of going progressive, the expectation of digital manipulation of silents, the vast chunk of unreleased titles mentioned, and on and on. Flat, technical, questions are "Amusing"? Perhaps that's the problem here...

Cue violins.

[tryavna]

No. Actually one of the ideas here is to pass along information that, at times, STOPS companies like Kino from, essentially, thieving money from consumers pockets.

May I request that you take these passionate and long winded posts to their own thread. Obstensively this is for discussion of specific DVD comparisons that we do and it allows people to receive updates of said. I find much of you are saying very amusing Herr Schreck but am starting to resent the hijacking.

I knew this would happen.

So here ends the discussion with no progress. SO much for raising questions and getting them answered square on. JUDEX/VAMPIRES, interlacing of silent film vs the possibility of going progressive, the expectation of digital manipulation of silents, the vast chunk of unreleased titles mentioned, and on and on. Flat, technical, questions are "Amusing"? Perhaps that's the problem here...

Yeah, again, I have to agree with Schreck. So much for trying to get the owner of major review site engaged in a conversation. Apparently, it's just "hijacking" or "amusing" to do so.

This comment from Gary has single-handedly caused me to lose a great deal of respect for him:

to pass along information that, at times, STOPS companies like Kino from, essentially, thieving money from consumers pockets

How precisely is a company "thieving money" by offering a number of quality DVDs of rare films (along with, admittedly, several crappy DVDs of equally rare films) that people are free to buy or not? I'm getting the impression that Gary's just pissed off that Kino doesn't send him free review copies. Maybe that's a little unfair, but it's becoming clearly evident that he is not "coldly objective at times about DVD value," as he put it in an earlier post, when it comes to Kino. There's obviously some sort of axe he has to grind there.

And I had thought that most of us were being fairly reasonable in our tone up till now....

[Michael Kerpan]

Keep on raising legitimate questions in a calm fashion. The questions deserve to be asked. And simply asking the questions might make some people aware of just how difficult it is to deal with important old films that have only unsatisfactory source material that can never match modern expectations.

Not every film has a well-heeled foundation willing and able to foot the bill for the ultimate level of technical rescue possible. How do we assess best (or at least usually reasonably decent) efforts when the ultimate result remains problematic?

[GringoTex]

The general thrust here seems to be that DVDBeaver doesn't have to like Kino, but Kino's discs at least deserve to be reviewed.

This is my big gripe. I want Gary to bash Kino every time they deserve it but he can't do that if he aint reviewing them.

Nobody needs the HD/BlueRay reviews do they? At least not for newer films. Fo older films, of course.

[Glass]

Can't someone from this forum, like HerrSchreck, write reviews of (older) Kino discs for DVD Beaver?

[sevenarts]

My thoughts:

DVDBeaver has been an excellent resource for reviewing the technical quality of discs. I don't go to them for reviews of the films, in fact I seldom go to any reviews in order to decide what films to watch or buy. In that regard, I find forums like this and "best" lists from critics I trust much better resources for gaining recommendations. I use Beaver when there's a film I want to see and I want to evaluate the existing DVDs to decide which one to buy, or if all are bad, to think about just renting for now. I haven't found any better site for this anywhere.

I would like to see Gary start reviewing more Kino discs, but I'm afraid that's a rather unrealistic proposition if they're not sending him review discs like other labels are. I can perfectly understand the reluctance of plunking down $20-30 on a disc that, given Kino's track record, has every possibility of being near-unwatchable, and for the sole purpose of writing a review which he will post for free on his site. It is, to some extent, the goal of DVDBeaver to prevent consumers from getting burned in that way, but that doesn't mean that Gary has to keep taking the burn for us. I appreciate Kino for stuff like the two Avant-Garde sets, where just having these films at all is good enough, and the crummy print quality in most cases is the best we're ever likely to get. But as a general rule I stay away from their DVDs unless it's something I absolutely need to see. They charge Criterion-level prices for a near-PD-level quality.

And the idea of getting someone who already has these discs to do more Kino reviews with screengrabs for Beaver is a great one. I'd love to see it, in order to be able to better judge the crap and the worthwhile from their catalogue.

[HerrSchreck]

Vast bulk of them already are, over at silentera and dvdtalk, with saner and more consistent minds. Again, nobody can tell me why JUDEX & LES VAMPIRES, TREASURES / MORE TREASURES, Image UNSEEN CINEMA with their interlacing & PAL/NTSC issues are either strongly reccommended or (in the case of UNSEEN, which is the exact template and style and quality and rarity and ballsiness... and price.. of the Kino releases) why these get Beevites creaming in their dry goods or nominated for Release of the Year, but Kino releases are groaned over when they are technological cookie-cutter duplicates. Nobody who chimes in here to carry on with the same old tired line is capable of answering this question. This is the core and center of this conversation, and if you're just going to goof off with "Yeah man keep slamming them, we rock with our really high standards.. most of our classmates dont even know about PAL players man!" (sound of high fives and toilet flush) then stick to the other threads devoted to dvd covers and tv-on-dvd.

[GringoTex]

Again, nobody can tell me why JUDEX & LES VAMPIRES, TREASURES / MORE TREASURES, Image UNSEEN CINEMA with their interlacing & PAL/NTSC issues are either strongly reccommended or (in the case of UNSEEN, which is the exact template and style and quality and rarity and ballsiness... and price.. of the Kino releases) why these get Beevites creaming in their dry goods or nominated for Release of the Year, but Kino releases are groaned over when they are technological cookie-cutter duplicates.

You're cherrypicking. There are plenty of Kino silents that DVDBeaver recommends and that come out on top in comparisons.

[HerrSchreck]

The worst thing about people who don't know what they're talking about is that they don't know that they don't know what they're talking about. And, like every organism, they have their reasons.

Hi Gringo. Nice to see you again. Yes, we're all hallucinating the reasons for this discussion. THANK YOU.

Ok now back to Life..

[GringoTex]

The worst thing about people who don't know what they're talking about is that they don't know that they don't know what they're talking about. And, like every organism, they have their reasons.

I think you used this same line on me when you tried to deny that Eisenstein was an influence on Pabst and Disney.

Standard Development Lifecycle of a Shreck Thread:

Shreck makes a point.
Shreck's point is countered.
Shreck titters nervously about misinterpretation of his original point
Shreck's point is countered again.
Shreck shrieks and tries to redefine his original point.
Somebody bitchslaps Shreck.
A now hysterical Shreck produces an ad-hominem "you don't know anything" line without ever addressing a single specific point that anybody's offered.
Rinse. Spit. Repeat.

[Gigi M.]

Shreck makes a point.
Shreck's point is countered.
Shreck titters nervously about misinterpretation of his original point
Shreck's point is countered again.
Shreck shrieks and tries to redefine his original point.
Somebody bitchslaps Shreck.
A now hysterical Shreck produces an ad-hominem "you don't know anything" line without ever addressing a single specific point that anybody's offered.
Rinse. Spit. Repeat.

I really don't want to get involved in your business, but I must say that's some hilarious shit.

I think both of you (Shreck and Gary) have raised some interesting points. You see, Gary is a reviewer, and as one, he has to recommended what he really thinks is worth spending our hard earn cash on. If he thinks Kino is not wroth it, we all have to respect that. On the other hand, I believe it's not fair to say Kino is stealing from us, since they're the only guys putting the stuff we love out there. Nobody is telling us to buy their stuff, but I really believe Kino's catalogue leave much to be desire.

[exte]

I would like to see Gary start reviewing more Kino discs, but I'm afraid that's a rather unrealistic proposition if they're not sending him review discs like other labels are. I can perfectly understand the reluctance of plunking down $20-30 on a disc that, given Kino's track record, has every possibility of being near-unwatchable, and for the sole purpose of writing a review which he will post for free on his site. It is, to some extent, the goal of DVDBeaver to prevent consumers from getting burned in that way, but that doesn't mean that Gary has to keep taking the burn for us. I appreciate Kino for stuff like the two Avant-Garde sets, where just having these films at all is good enough, and the crummy print quality in most cases is the best we're ever likely to get. But as a general rule I stay away from their DVDs unless it's something I absolutely need to see. They charge Criterion-level prices for a near-PD-level quality.

Then why don't we start lobbying Kino to send him review discs, arguing just that? I can digg that...

Shreck makes a point.
Shreck's point is countered.
Shreck titters nervously about misinterpretation of his original point
Shreck's point is countered again.
Shreck shrieks and tries to redefine his original point.
Somebody bitchslaps Shreck.
A now hysterical Shreck produces an ad-hominem "you don't know anything" line without ever addressing a single specific point that anybody's offered.
Rinse. Spit. Repeat.

I really don't want to get involved in your business, but I must say that's some hilarious shit.

Ditto.

[Petty Bourgeoisie]

I sympathise very much with those that would like to see Kino's discs reviewed at DVDBeaver. The films are undoubtedly much more worthy/interesting to fans of classic cinema than the majority of screengrab-less Blu-Ray/HD-DVD reviews that are going up (A FEW GOOD MEN, ERIN BROCKOVICH, SPEED, SCENT OF A WOMAN, NOTTING HILL, TOP GUN, TROY) and I'm probably not the only one infinitely more interested in Kino's silent releases than I am in how A MIGHTY HEART or DEATH PROOF fare on SD

That's what I wanted to say but I chickened out. Top Gun? Top freaking Gun!?! What percentage of DVD Beaver readers are interested in adding Top Gun to their collection?

I repeat - TOP GUN?!?!?!?!?!?!? WTF?

"Your egos writing checks your body can't cash".

Could you please remove that review so I can visit the site without being embarrassed. Just kidding (kind of).

[davebert]

The other thing is that many fine rental outlets (or hell, Netflix) will gladly rent you Kino discs. A couple dollars a month for all that coverage will reap its rewards in renewed readership and further acknowledgement of the Beaver site as a destination for ALL types of important film.


While the thread has taken a derailing, I think this discussion is indeed very valuable, and I will say that the silent film culture on home video has always seemed antagonistic to the general trend of drooling at the pursuit of high-definition/home theater culture.

There is something to be said for the commercial interest and viability sites like DVD Beaver and other DVD review sites help sustain, in that if I didn't go on this forum, where else would I learn about titles, get recommendations, etc? ALL silent film I have gotten over the years has been at the recommendation of people on this forum, moving from the Murnau, Pabst, Treasures of the Archives standards into things I would never have sought out before (at Schreck's constant mentioning, I picked up Warning Shadows, which was fantastic).

So yeah, I like Kino. Except that they put out 1/3... which... come on.

[Musashi219]

I feel I need to reply because I own a good amount of Kino discs and I can see where both Gary and Schreck are coming from.

I use Gary's site alot, mostly to see if the version of something I'm planning on picking up has a decent transfer - which is primarily what his site is designed for. And yes often I see a general trashing on Kino from DVDBeaver because Kino's discs aren't up to snuff with other releases - most of which are international discs. What is to be said for the folks who do not own region-free players that convert PAL->NTSC and so forth? I just became region free earlier this year and I've been pleased so far (Thanks MoC!), but before all that I was stuck with whatever was R1. I think this is something Gary fails to understand, that not everyone is region-free nor do they all own an entertainment system as finely-tuned as his.

Sure Kino has pissed me off before, but I also have to give them props for having the courage/balls/decency/whatever to bring alot of releases here to the States. I don't see anyone else jumping to release Kar-Wai's work or the Maiku Hama Trilogy or those great Alain Delon policiers. I don't see companies jumping at a chance to release the works of D.W. Griffith, maybe because they're like the AFI and don't want anything to do with The Birth of a Nation because of political correctness. The fact of the matter though is, while I would love (as would many others here) to see more films receive the fantastic Criterion treatment, this won't happen to every release. And I'm sorry but if the only way I'm going to see a certain film is via a DVD that looks like utter crap, then I'm going to go ahead and deal with it because who knows when that certain film will be given a proper release with restoration work. Sure some of the DVDs I have from Kino may crackle and hiss, have combing issues, and the like, but at least I'm able to WATCH the film regardless of technical problems.

All I know is I can't wait to see what DVDBeaver thinks of Kino's upcoming Battleship Potemkin release.

[Cold Bishop]

Well, in all fairness, the WKW are all available in superior editions (with the possible exception of Happy Together), so I wouldn't give Kino too much credit for those.

[Musashi219]

Well, in all fairness, the WKW are all available in superior editions (with the possible exception of Happy Together), so I wouldn't give Kino too much credit for those.

Oh I realize that but I was referring to the fact I bought the WKW boxset from Kino before I went region-free. I have upgraded since then.

[HerrSchreck]

The worst thing about people who don't know what they're talking about is that they don't know that they don't know what they're talking about. And, like every organism, they have their reasons.

I think you used this same line on me when you tried to deny that Eisenstein was an influence on Pabst and Disney.

Standard Development Lifecycle of a Shreck Thread:

Shreck makes a point.
Shreck's point is countered.
Shreck titters nervously about misinterpretation of his original point
Shreck's point is countered again.
Shreck shrieks and tries to redefine his original point.
Somebody bitchslaps Shreck.
A now hysterical Shreck produces an ad-hominem "you don't know anything" line without ever addressing a single specific point that anybody's offered.
Rinse. Spit. Repeat.

No senor, the thread was moving along at a nicely civilized, and well reasoned clip until you walked thru the plate glass door, stuck your foot into the flower pot, and clumped into the room knocking over lamps and People Without Problems.

If you'd like to know why you aren't taken seriously, it's because you're missing a point here that everyone seems to understand, including Gary, who has confessed to the possibility of his bias towards Kino, and why he is condemning interlacing-- and creating the impression to newcomers that it is neither standard or obligatory in most, pre-1927/8 releases -- on Kino discs when it is overlooked in others. Taking him at his word, based on his own reply here for the further reasons for his singling them out is the lack of Criterion-style cleanup and boosting, which is generally frowned upon in the business, and in fact rarely seen. There is no "cherry picking"... the man has reviewed perhaps .005 percent of their catalog, and even less of the crux of this catalog, which are the silent releases. The point of the thread is the repeated pounding home the fact that this company is not producing worthwhile releases, that he's had it with them, that he's fed up with them, that he's tired of putting money in their pockets. My point is that he's either 1) misinformed about the nature of the vast bulk of silent film disc production (in which case he should welcome the correction, ie the demands wrought by frame rates), or 2) biased against the company.

And my amusement and disregard of you goes on because of your silliness. One day you come on with "I'm glad Gary thwacks Kino because their releases are sub par", and then the next page you're coming on with "You're cherry picking. Gary praises Kinos releases." I'm sorry you're still smarting from your affair over Eisenstein & Pabst, but if you'd like to reopen that discussion with someone, there was a thread for it. I and zedz and David elucidated the facts behind Pabst and his editing, and for further blank-fill-in you might buy the THREEPENNY OPERA from CC and get more exposition regarding Pabst primary fame for integrating Hollywood style editing into his vamping on the general Murnau/Fritz Arno Wagnerian pictorialism.

And you're bordering on trolling kiddo with all that OT venom. Be careful.