Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

Milestone, Flicker Alley, Oscilloscope, Cinema Guild...they're all here.
Locked
Message
Author
User avatar
Lost Highway
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:41 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#176 Post by Lost Highway » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:13 am

There also is this German digitally remastered version by Studio Canal which came out earlier this year. It’s less blown out, but I can’t see more detail on these screen-caps. I wondered if that is a similar deal to the KIno Lorber remaster. I only have the earlier German release by Concorde, which looks identical to the MK2.

https://caps-a-holic.com/c_list.php?c=1487

Zot!
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:09 am

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#177 Post by Zot! » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:17 am

If anybody wants to laugh at themselves, feel free to refer back to the Mulholland Drive thread around page 4 and the bitching about everything from cover art, chapter stops, low bit rate, glitches, lack of extras, self-censorship etc... So I don't think KL is alone in getting grief about putting out something that was less than perfect.

It's Lost Highway on BD, the reviews and screencaps are out. I think the only thing that might win KL some good will is if they self-publish the contract length, so people can make up their own minds as to their priorities. David Lynch being famously prickly (See the showtime disagreements and the CC shunning) also doesn't divulge this critical piece of information, so that we can just decide our own fate. His "approval" evidently does not guarantee this forum's satisfaction.

User avatar
Lost Highway
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:41 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#178 Post by Lost Highway » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:40 am

I don’t care about the drama, if the KL is the best release we’ll get for some time then I’ll go for it. Hopefully a caps-a-holic comparison will be up soon, I’d like to see how it compares against the Studio Canal remaster. I’m not going to go by Svet’s evaluation on anything, he’s a loon and has been wrong many times before.

peerpee
not perpee
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:41 pm

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#179 Post by peerpee » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:15 am

Kino Insider wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:30 pm
I understand what you're saying and I'll stay away from this thread, but you don't see me going on other label's threads or the ones peepee works for and criticizing their release. It's very unprofessional, especially for someone who works in the industry. We see people from other labels chiming in here and on the other forums and they should all be ashamed of themselves. You also need to talk to these tough guys behind their keyboards and not take sides.

I'm freelance, I'll criticise whatever I like. What's your real name?

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#180 Post by tenia » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:43 am

nitin wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:55 am
Br.com’s review says this is a newer master than the one used for previous French (and german) releases? Is that correct? I thought it was the same master but with further colour correction work performed?
From what it seems, Universal licenced their own older master, while they used the MK2 one for their own UK release. It thus does look like there are 2 different HD masters. However, they look similar enough that I'd guess they're from the same scan. The same wobbling is visible on both the KL and MK2 discs, similar sharpening is spottable also in the same shots, and texture wise, there is a similar level of details. However, the grading is quite different, the AR and framing a little bit, and the MK2 is much cleaner. But in the overall aspect of things, color grading apart, there isn't much difference in PQ between both.
I'd also argue stating it's a "newer master" might be technically correct but might also generate false expectations : from all we know, the MK2 master is from at least 2005, the Universal at least 2008. Potato, potato...

mteller
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:23 pm

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#181 Post by mteller » Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:59 am

Kino Insider wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:30 pm
I understand what you're saying and I'll stay away from this thread, but you don't see me going on other label's threads or the ones peepee works for and criticizing their release. It's very unprofessional, especially for someone who works in the industry. We see people from other labels chiming in here and on the other forums and they should all be ashamed of themselves. You also need to talk to these tough guys behind their keyboards and not take sides.
If your job is to be the public face of Kino, then you are really, really bad at your job. You make me want to avoid buying your company's products.

User avatar
mfunk9786
Under Chris' Protection
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:43 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#182 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:25 am

Guys - at the end of the day, Kino Insider (whomever they are) is posting here at their own pleasure. It might not be the context some people want, but they're being kind enough to share their side of this situation with people here who want more details on it. There's no need to pile on like mteller has done above, nor any reason to make it super personal (outside of PMs, where a question like peerpee's would have been better suited). Relax.

peerpee
not perpee
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:41 pm

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#183 Post by peerpee » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:53 am

Absolute rubbish.

User avatar
jsteffe
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:00 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#184 Post by jsteffe » Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:26 pm

As picky as I am about picture quality, I think the controversy is overblown. We already know it's an older master, like many other releases even today. So now there will be multiple releases of Lost Highway on Blu-ray to chose from, arguably none of which is ideal. Nothing new here. People can decide whether they want to get one of the older masters now, or hold out for a new 4K restoration in the future. Personally speaking, I would be much more upset if it were a new restoration but it were seriously botched in some way, as has happened with various other films. In those cases, it seems more unlikely that any remedy will appear within the next several years.

Everything else about KL vs. Lynch is mostly just noise.

peerpee
not perpee
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:41 pm

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#185 Post by peerpee » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:20 pm

It’s really terrific that the easily pleased are easily pleased with results they admit aren’t ideal.

User avatar
mfunk9786
Under Chris' Protection
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:43 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#186 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:27 pm

If there were no other way to watch Lost Highway that would be one thing, but why the consolation prizes for a subpar release? Svet's review (par for the course for him) is embarrassing.

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#187 Post by tenia » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:35 pm

peerpee wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:20 pm
It’s really terrific that the easily pleased are easily pleased with results they admit aren’t ideal.
I think what James most specifically covers is that the end results isn't much different than any intelligent guess led to expect, so it's not as if we're suddenly getting something even more awful. It's just a pre-existing master (and not a particularly problematic one), just like we expected. In this regard, there shouldn't be any more controversy than for all the tons of indie releases sourced from pre-existing HD masters (whether from Eureka, Arrow, BFI, Indicator, Kino, Criterion, Wild Side, Carlotta, you name it).

This being written, I agree that both Svet's review (I do hope a new restoration will arrive in the next years so that he'll be stuck with only being able to score it half a point above this dated master) and many blu-ray.com's members' posts are way too forgiving. But again, this HD master isn't, say, The Reckoning's one.

peerpee
not perpee
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:41 pm

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#188 Post by peerpee » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:56 pm

A decision not to have released it could have led to the end of Universal’s deal being bought out and a proper 4K release emerging sooner.

Lynch isn’t going to be around forever.

No, but let’s pat Kino on the back for going about this abominably, serving up a bogstandard disc, disrespecting the director publicly, and let’s thank Kino Insider for having the skillset of recent White House Press Secretaries.

JonasEB
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:02 am

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#189 Post by JonasEB » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:16 pm

peerpee wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:20 pm
It’s really terrific that the easily pleased are easily pleased with results they admit aren’t ideal.
That’s nice.

You can’t get everything you want the way you want it. Because of people like you and the disinformation you spread, I and everyone else can no longer watch non-standard frame rate silent films with smooth playback. We get choppy 24p instead of silky smooth interlacing (use a PlayStation and you’ll find that combing is a non-issue.) That sure is an improvement... Thankfully Criterion still does it the right way with their Harold Lloyd releases and The Passion of Joan of Arc (among others.) I still appreciate and enjoy all of the jerkified silent films out there, but they should and can look way better than they do.

The companies you’re affiliated with have released worse masters than this edition of Lost Highway. I don’t mind, though. Sometimes you just have to.

This Lost Highway could look better but it’s far from bad. Why wasn’t there such a fuss when Wild at Heart came out multiple times from the same type of old master?

User avatar
swo17
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
Location: SLC, UT

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#190 Post by swo17 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:20 pm

Are we thinking this is a likely timeline for the Lost Highway release?

1. Kino picked up rights to release this film in a package deal from Universal
2. Kino reached out to Lynch/his agent who perhaps were initially responsive but upon learning all the details expressed that they didn't want this release to move forward
3. Kino didn't consider this a viable option since they had already invested in the release and wanted to see a return
4. Kino continued to reach out to Lynch who did not respond because he considered the matter settled
5. Kino decided to move forward with a release sans extras that would at least comply with their contract if not the director's wishes
6. Lynch realized his wishes were not being honored and so made the matter public

User avatar
Drucker
Your Future our Drucker
Joined: Wed May 18, 2011 9:37 am

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#191 Post by Drucker » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:41 pm

JonasEB wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:16 pm
peerpee wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:20 pm
It’s really terrific that the easily pleased are easily pleased with results they admit aren’t ideal.
That’s nice.

You can’t get everything you want the way you want it. Because of people like you and the disinformation you spread, I and everyone else can no longer watch non-standard frame rate silent films with smooth playback. We get choppy 24p instead of silky smooth interlacing (use a PlayStation and you’ll find that combing is a non-issue.) That sure is an improvement... Thankfully Criterion still does it the right way with their Harold Lloyd releases and The Passion of Joan of Arc (among others.) I still appreciate and enjoy all of the jerkified silent films out there, but they should and can look way better than they do.

The companies you’re affiliated with have released worse masters than this edition of Lost Highway. I don’t mind, though. Sometimes you just have to.

This Lost Highway could look better but it’s far from bad. Why wasn’t there such a fuss when Wild at Heart came out multiple times from the same type of old master?
He literally helped produce the first proper 20fps release of Joan of Arc ffs.

User avatar
MichaelB
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
Location: Worthing
Contact:

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#192 Post by MichaelB » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:37 pm

JonasEB wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:16 pm
This Lost Highway could look better but it’s far from bad. Why wasn’t there such a fuss when Wild at Heart came out multiple times from the same type of old master?
Did David Lynch tweet about it? Because that seems to be the sole thing that's kicked this thing off.

peerpee
not perpee
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:41 pm

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#193 Post by peerpee » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:00 pm

JonasEB wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:16 pm
That’s nice.

You can’t get everything you want the way you want it. Because of people like you and the disinformation you spread, I and everyone else can no longer watch non-standard frame rate silent films with smooth playback. We get choppy 24p instead of silky smooth interlacing (use a PlayStation and you’ll find that combing is a non-issue.) That sure is an improvement... Thankfully Criterion still does it the right way with their Harold Lloyd releases and The Passion of Joan of Arc (among others.) I still appreciate and enjoy all of the jerkified silent films out there, but they should and can look way better than they do."
Your ire should be directed at the Blu-ray Disc Association who decided not to implement multiple framerates into the Blu-ray spec.

Both 'solutions' have their problems. Interlacing has a ghostly effect on motion, it makes the images less distinct, and it cannot be paused to produce a clean image.

Step-framing is an organic, filmic solution to the problem, it's not ideal, but it was introduced decades ago. Interlacing is a video-era fix.

I haven't spread any disinformation, thank you.

The companies you’re affiliated with have released worse masters than this edition of Lost Highway. I don’t mind, though. Sometimes you just have to.
That's not the issue, because none of them were released against a living director's wishes, nor have I been involved with publicly disrespecting a living director.
This Lost Highway could look better but it’s far from bad. Why wasn’t there such a fuss when Wild at Heart came out multiple times from the same type of old master?
Because Lynch didn't have anything in his contract for that one.

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#194 Post by tenia » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:07 pm

As I wrote in this very thread, I'm always surprised by members of dedicated boards seemingly not doing any homework.

Out of Criterion's 4 Lloyd releases, only 1 is interlaced (Safety Last), the others being 1080p24.
Out of their 16 silent BD releases, only 5 (roughly 30%) are interlaced (Safety Last + Joan of Arc 20fps version, Master of the House, Phantom Carriage and People on Sunday). I don't recall any of their silent DVD releases ever taking this into account and being at a different framerate (say, like the 3 Silent von Sternberg). JonasEB : do you have any issues with all those silent Criterion in 1080p24 ? You clearly don't seem like you do.
Interestingly enough : nobody ever complained (including on Nitrateville) about a stuttering issue on MoC's Joan of Arc release. Same goes for the Criterion. Yet, one presents the 20fps as 1080p, the other 1080i.

In any case, it's years since we know the BD presentations of silent movies with non-24fps framerate are case-by-case basis depending on their original framerates (not even going into variable framerates movies), and that depending on how well you can replicate frames to have a good pattern, you either choose progressive or interlaced.
It's also different in Europe than in the US, since the US can't have 1080i50 (ie 25fps), but 1080i60 (ie 30fps) instead.
JonasEB wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:16 pm
The companies you’re affiliated with have released worse masters than this edition of Lost Highway.
"Two wrongs make a right" sophism.
swo17 wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:20 pm
Are we thinking this is a likely timeline for the Lost Highway release?
Looks like it, but I suppose Kino chose to produce some extras between step 1 and 2 and reached out to Lynch/his agent to approve the extras.

User avatar
MichaelB
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
Location: Worthing
Contact:

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#195 Post by MichaelB » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:20 pm

tenia wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:07 pm
In any case, it's years since we know the BD presentations of silent movies with non-24fps framerate are case-by-case basis depending on their original framerates (not even going into variable framerates movies), and that depending on how well you can replicate frames to have a good pattern, you either choose progressive or interlaced.
It's also different in Europe than in the US, since the US can't have 1080i50 (ie 25fps), but 1080i60 (ie 30fps) instead.
It's absolutely a case-by-case thing, Nick's reasoning is perfectly sound (sadly, as with PAL/NTSC transfers of yore, both methods are workarounds with upsides and downsides), and I too reject the peremptory accusation of "disinformation".

And your Criterion technical stats suggest that they have exactly the same attitude, which I applaud.

David M.
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 1:10 pm

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#196 Post by David M. » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:48 pm

peerpee wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:00 pm

Your ire should be directed at the Blu-ray Disc Association who decided not to implement multiple framerates into the Blu-ray spec.

Both 'solutions' have their problems. Interlacing has a ghostly effect on motion, it makes the images less distinct, and it cannot be paused to produce a clean image.
Interlacing doesn't add any ghosting effects on motion in the way its implemented for silent films (pulldown). If the player's able to recognize the underlying content as film, it'll output a full resolution image. Most won't know what to do with more obscure cadences so will fall back into video deinterlacing mode, which will result in lessened vertical resolution.

I did a silent-era title once for a studio and I recommended they author it in 720p/60. The higher 60fps rate would allow the unique frames to be better spaced out, resulting in less judder, and the film was scanned from a variety of lower-resolution sources anyway so the lack of full 1080p wouldn't be a huge deal. The studio said no and preferred the more juddery 24p option because they were afraid consumers would revolt against the 720p resolution (even although the film element's own inherent softness meant there was no actual resolution loss). An example of how a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing at times.

BTW, it's not the Blu-ray Disc Association's fault, either. There'd be no point in them adding variable frame rate support when they were designing the format in the early 2000s, because displays don't support it. Displays at the time could accept input in either 50 or 60hz, with 24hz emerging. Most displays still don't support variable frame rates (Samsung eventually added it to some of theirs I think around 2017, because gamers asked for it).

User avatar
swo17
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
Location: SLC, UT

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#197 Post by swo17 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:21 pm

peerpee wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:00 pm
JonasEB wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:16 pm
That’s nice.

You can’t get everything you want the way you want it. Because of people like you and the disinformation you spread, I and everyone else can no longer watch non-standard frame rate silent films with smooth playback. We get choppy 24p instead of silky smooth interlacing (use a PlayStation and you’ll find that combing is a non-issue.) That sure is an improvement... Thankfully Criterion still does it the right way with their Harold Lloyd releases and The Passion of Joan of Arc (among others.) I still appreciate and enjoy all of the jerkified silent films out there, but they should and can look way better than they do."
Your ire should be directed at the Blu-ray Disc Association who decided not to implement multiple framerates into the Blu-ray spec.

Both 'solutions' have their problems. Interlacing has a ghostly effect on motion, it makes the images less distinct, and it cannot be paused to produce a clean image.

Step-framing is an organic, filmic solution to the problem, it's not ideal, but it was introduced decades ago. Interlacing is a video-era fix.

I haven't spread any disinformation, thank you.

The companies you’re affiliated with have released worse masters than this edition of Lost Highway. I don’t mind, though. Sometimes you just have to.
That's not the issue, because none of them were released against a living director's wishes, nor have I been involved with publicly disrespecting a living director.
This Lost Highway could look better but it’s far from bad. Why wasn’t there such a fuss when Wild at Heart came out multiple times from the same type of old master?
Because Lynch didn't have anything in his contract for that one.
peerpee, can you please check your PMs?

peerpee
not perpee
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:41 pm

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#198 Post by peerpee » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:49 pm

David M. wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:48 pm
Interlacing doesn't add any ghosting effects on motion in the way its implemented for silent films (pulldown). If the player's able to recognize the underlying content as film, it'll output a full resolution image. Most won't know what to do with more obscure cadences so will fall back into video deinterlacing mode, which will result in lessened vertical resolution.
If, when a player is paused, and the paused frame results in an interlaced frame, then *in motion* there is a loss of definition –– presumably the lessened vertical resolution you refer to? The loss of definition looks ghostly/hazy, not that objects are followed by ghosts of themselves.

If the end result of interlacing isn't 100% consistent across various players/Playstations, what good is it compared to adding frames?

User avatar
Reverend Drewcifer
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: Cincinnati

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#199 Post by Reverend Drewcifer » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:57 pm

8-[ ...catching up with this thread after moving house over the last few weeks. FWIW, Lost Highway looked gauzy/muddy and dim when I saw it in 1997. I remember it being described as a "war wound up in a silk dress" in David Breskin's Inner Views, and that's what it has always looked like. The VHS (even with letter-boxing) looked rotten, and the DVD was mastered to look/sound like a dimly-recalled memory, but this film was never going to benefit from more bits and a razor-sharp master. It. Was. Never. Sharp. What it needs is responsible color-timing and less smearing, with a close eye on keeping all the reds and ochres from blooming. The Kino disc achieves that. If I'm too easily pleased, I'll eat it, but if any BD from any company comes close to what played in the theater, I'll part with some disposable income this year, and I'll part with it again when Lynch wins this battle in a few more years. "Principle" is what people conjure up when they are a-ok with watching money walk out the front door, and Kino didn't want to write this shit show off as a poor investment. Sure, they are definitely "exploiting" the title, but they haven't ground it into dust, re-cut it, or turned it into something it's not or never was. Maybe "pragmatic" is "too easily pleased," but my eyes don't deceive me that this Kino release is an acceptable place-holder, my Lost Highway DVD is woefully obsolete, and making David Lynch happy is waaaaaaaaaaay down my list of priorities. I wouldn't waste any time mollifying that man. Going into business with him in any way is an abject lesson in how artistes are more like children than anyone else in any other trade craft. His original (and only!) word on the matter registers his dissatisfaction, but it was not a call to action from the commentariat to curb-stomp anyone from either side, and the responses in this forum are not at all proportional to what amounts to what will inevitably be a blip in the home video history of this film. Kino made a solid business decision and then a lot of bad PR mopping up, so this is definitely a teachable moment for those who serve as their representatives, but theirs is not and never will be the final word on a film that will have an extremely difficult time reproducing its theatrical look, even with our favorite boutique label at the helm, and even with a contented David Lynch blowing bubbles in his chocolate milk.

The bile vomited up over this whole imbroglio, for a transfer that doesn't demand attention but doesn't deserve scorn, is frankly embarrassing.

David M.
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 1:10 pm

Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics: Lost Highway

#200 Post by David M. » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:04 pm

peerpee wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:49 pm
If the end result of interlacing isn't 100% consistent across various players/Playstations, what good is it compared to adding frames?
It would allow 60 images per second (as fields), so more evenly distributed image repetitions, while maintaining full vertical resolution - on some hardware.

Lessened vertical resolution (if the hardware fell back into video deinterlacing mode) would look slightly jagged, not something I would describe as ghosted.

Locked