Business Models: Twilight Time vs. Other Boutique Labels

[Gregory]

Some of the customs forms on packages I receive from UK sellers are kind of amusing. On one I looked at today, the "signature" is the name Fred Smith printed in a script font, and the description of the contents is "Media" with a declared value of GBP 1. Pretty brazen.
I've sold many items internationally as an Amazon seller and usually declare the value as the price the item sold for, although sometimes if someone bought an expensive OOP item, I've declared the regular selling price as the value (i.e., the retail price I paid for the item when I bought it, not the high OOP price). That seems fair to me, and I can live with being technically in violation of the WTO:

The WTO Valuation Agreement is formally known as the Agreement on Implementation of Article VII of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) 1994. It replaced the GATT Valuation Code as a result of the Uruguay Round multilateral trade negotiations which created the WTO in 1994.

The Agreement provides a Customs valuation system that primarily bases the Customs value on the transaction value of the imported goods, which is the price actually paid or payable for the goods when sold for export to the country of importation, with certain adjustments.

If I were running a company I a company like SAE I think I'd try to run everything on the level down to the letter of the law. And if I were shipping a fairly large order overseas I think I'd want to insure the package, and so I would have to say what the actual value was, wouldn't I?

[EddieLarkin]

If you choose insured shipping with SAE, they do indeed declare the true value.

[Gregory]

I wonder what's to keep a dishonest buyer from placing a large order, not choosing insured shipping, and then demanding a refund or a chargeback claiming the order never arrived? I worry about that somewhat as an Amazon seller who ships internationally, and I can't get signature confirmation because USPS won't offer it internationally, though I haven't had to deal with any claims like that yet.

[TMDaines]

There's nothing to stop them but it would be mail fraud. As a seller you want to make sure that the service that you use is insured for up to the value of the contents. As long as that is the case, it is the post office's problem and not yours, even if it is tedious and time consuming to make a claim.

[TMDaines]

If you choose insured shipping with SAE, they do indeed declare the true value.

Is that option anything other than a sucker's choice? They're liable for the package until it reaches the buyer according to US law, and to the law of most Western countries I imagine, regardless of any nonsense mumbo jumbo they may state.

[Gregory]

There's nothing to stop them but it would be mail fraud. As a seller you want to make sure that the service that you use is insured for up to the value of the contents. As long as that is the case, it is the post office's problem and not yours, even if it is tedious and time consuming to make a claim.

Except that the US Postal Service doesn't offer insurance for First Class International packages, so I'd have to ship the item Priority Mail, which is often prohibitively expensive (e.g., I would get $15 shipping credit from Amazon but it may cost $25 or more for Global Priority). I believe they don't even offer insurance for Priority flat-rate envelopes and small boxes. I'd probably rather quit selling internationally than have to lose that much money on shipping. But I've probably shipped around 100 uninsured international orders by now and have had no problems with claims of lost packages, so it's worked out well so far.

[TMDaines]

There's nothing to stop them but it would be mail fraud. As a seller you want to make sure that the service that you use is insured for up to the value of the contents. As long as that is the case, it is the post office's problem and not yours, even if it is tedious and time consuming to make a claim.

Except that the US Postal Service doesn't offer insurance for First Class International packages, so I'd have to ship the item Priority Mail, which is often prohibitively expensive (e.g., I would get $15 shipping credit from Amazon but it may cost $25 or more for Global Priority). I believe they don't even offer insurance for Priority flat-rate envelopes and small boxes. I'd probably rather quit selling internationally than have to lose that much money on shipping. But I've probably shipped around 100 uninsured international orders by now and have had no problems with claims of lost packages, so it's worked out well so far.

Wow! I'm quite shocked that that is the case. It makes our increasingly expensive options from the Royal Mail look like a luxury in comparison.

[dda1996a]

What's with TT over pricing their releases, having barely any extras, and always having ugly covers? (and what of their releases isn't part of the "limited edition series"?) even if they did release some of my most cherished films (purple rose of Cairo for example) I will manage without owning such an overpriced package if it means spending so much for just an HD upgrade

[Noiradelic]

What's with TT over pricing their releases, having barely any extras and always having ugly covers? (and what of their releases isn't part of the "limited edition series"?) even if they did release some of my most cherished films (purple rose of Cairo for example) I will manage without owning such an overpriced package if it means spending so much for just an HD upgrade

All Twilight Time releases are limited editions, usually licensed for 3 years; but after 3 years, if they've sold out fairly quickly, they try to relicense them.

I'm more anti-Twilight Time then pro, but there is some context to their business model. At the time they started in 2011, boutique labels other than Criterion and maybe a few others having big licensing deals with the major studios was just taking off. Nick Redman and his partner applied the limited-edition business model Fox used for for movie soundtrack CDs when Redman worked there to TT DVDs and Blu-rays, making them only available through Screen Archives Entertainment. So since they pay the licensing fees upfront, they started out as a very small operation and they don't sell through big retailers, the prices are expensive.

There are Twilight Time sales a couple of times a year -- they just had one -- where you can get the titles for $20. There are generally more extras now. If you really want Purple Rose of Cairo, I say treat yourself and just buy it during one of the sales -- unless you're region-free and prefer to wait and get the not-yet officially announced second Arrow Woody Allen box set. I own about a dozen TT's and have more or less decided not to buy any more unless they come out with what consider another absolute must-have -- there are only around six in their catalog so far I really feel that way about.

[Ribs]

TT are a godsend for putting out titles I really, honestly think would never have come out otherwise - Nicholas and Alexandra, Khartoum, etc. Not classics, but thanks to TT's weird business position of starting as a company based around musical scores they've done some really interesting releases that I don't think anyone else would have ever bothered with. They're expensive but a lot of times they really are properly niche titles.

[domino harvey]

In the wake of Kino Lorber and even Olive licensing cheap Blu-rays from the same studios as TT at markedly lower actual prices and available via conventional retailers, TT has become harder to justify. Catching them on sale put you at about ~$22 a pop when shipping is factored in for big orders, and that's the cheapest you'll get. Not horrible, but in this market, not great or laudable either

[PfR73]

At least, after an initial bumpy period, Twilight Time got in the habit of carrying over the previous extras from DVD releases of the films they put out, and even began adding new extras. At least 50% of time (probably more), Olive drops some or all of the DVD extras for their Blu-Ray releases. Kino Lorber seems to be doing a good job carrying over existing extras, so I do applaud them for that.

[captveg]

Part of that was Sony reversing their policies on allowing bonus content on titles licensed out to other distributors.

[Noiradelic]

In the wake of Kino Lorber and even Olive licensing cheap Blu-rays from the same studios as TT at markedly lower actual prices and available via conventional retailers, TT has become harder to justify. Catching them on sale put you at about ~$22 a pop when shipping is factored in for big orders, and that's the cheapest you'll get. Not horrible, but in this market, not great or laudable either

Exactly right. As you point out, the boutique label industry has changed since they started, making their business model seem very 2011. Since they've grown quite a bit from their almost-vanity-label origins, it'd be nice if the model evolved as well -- drop the list price at least $5 or allow select retailers to sell and discount their product, do bigger runs on the more popular titles etc.

[captveg]

TT looking at smaller runs for some releases (1500 copies, for example), and they expect 2020 to be the "endgame" for them. Here:

From a DVD Talk web site post came this line:

"TT has also mentioned the possibility of lowering the number of copies from 3000 down to 1500 due to the the decline of sales, so things are always changing."

Has anyone here any supporting information? Seeing the increase of sales on the TT or SAE sites, it seems plausible.

Perhaps Nick could chime in on this.

Nothing much to add --- it is now a matter of common sense. Sales are cratering across the board for every label, although it is a good time for collectors with the product glut far outweighing an audience to buy it. Just as we predicted six years ago, the business has entirely devolved to third party licensees involved in a frenzy for the studios who now realize there is more money to be made in farming stuff out than releasing themselves. Greed though, always becomes a factor and the studios are driving up the licensing fees and advance guarantees in direct contradiction of the waning sales figures. We are entering the final phase of the physical media business with labels toying with more and more limited runs targeting those collectors that are left gamely trying to keep up - it's been a wild ride - and perhaps it will continue for a few years more. When we began TT in 2010 we figured on maybe lasting 5 or 6 years - we're now looking at 2020 as the end game which will mean we lasted 10 - not so bad in the grand scheme of things.

[matrixschmatrix]

Jesus, that's grim. I kind of hope that's a reflection more of the twilight time distribution and pricing model kind of sucking than the industry as a whole- I was under the impression that Criterion, at least, was doin fine, and it seems like Arrow is if anything expanding a bit.

[Ribs]

Is Redman or whoever manages the TT account in a position to make such a bold declaration about the other labels? I've not gotten that impression based on the increasing release rates from Shout, Criterion, and Arrow that sales have slowed at all. I *think* it's just that TT's model just can't sustain itself as a long-term practice; when things literally went on sale once a year it kind of made sense, but now that that have sales all the time I see no reason at all to ever pay their ludicrous prices, not to mention the fact that Indicator seems to be outdoing them with every release.

[domino harvey]

Once Kino Lorber and Olive started cannibalizing TT's releases and selling them for half what TT asked and direct to consumers via regular distro channels, TT's sales surely took a nosedive

[FrauBlucher]

JI was under the impression that Criterion, at least, was doin fine, and it seems like Arrow is if anything expanding a bit.

I wouldn't take Redman's/TT word on how the others are doing. His biz model was doomed from the beginning. He's so arrogant that his suggestion that physical media was ending 5 to 6 years from when he started TT is laughable and incorrect. Now he is giving it the death knell in three years when his company falls by the wayside. He'll be wrong again.

[Brian C]

There's kind of a "no one goes there anymore, it's too crowded" quality to his description of the way licensees are rushing after titles. There's so much enthusiasm for content to release that it's driving up licensing fees! And that's offered up as a failing market? Something doesn't compute in that formulation.

There's probably some truth in what he's saying but his explanation is a garbled mess.

[captveg]

There's kind of a "no one goes there anymore, it's too crowded" quality to his description of the way licensees are rushing after titles.

Agreed.

BTW, to see a literal enacting of that famous idiom go to any Disneyland related message board, wherein Disneyland super-fans bemoan the huge crowds and then struggle to understand why Disney keeps raising theme park prices...

[matrixschmatrix]

I mean if it boils down to 'we were getting away with this because we were getting our titles dirt cheap and nobody was competing with us' then yeah I can see where expanded farming out by the majors would endanger them

[captveg]

And it could be true that for most of these titles 3000 is too large of a run. My understanding is that Shout, Kino, Olive, etc. manage their runs in distribution runs closer to 300 or 500 except for major titles, such as The Thing. (Even Warner Archive titles replicate in such small batches). The other labels also can do subsequent runs if a particular title is a surprise hit. Also, if MisterLime is to be believed, those business models are more about getting certain "packages" of titles wherein they will have some real strong sellers and a myriad of questionable ones.

With the MGM related TT sale, my guess is that this year will see the end of titles they've licensed from them, and that they'll go back to mostly dealing with Sony and Fox, with the occasional rare Rewind or Toei title.

[vidussoni]

Once Kino Lorber and Olive started cannibalizing TT's releases and selling them for half what TT asked and direct to consumers via regular distro channels, TT's sales surely took a nosedive

But those isolated scores!

[TMDaines]

Oh the sweet irony of Twilight Time dying off long before the rest of the industry does. Too good.