464 Danton
- Jeff
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:49 pm
- Location: Denver, CO
464 Danton
Danton
[img]http://criterion_production.s3.amazonaws.com/release_images/2053/Danton_348x490_w128.jpg[/img]
Gérard Depardieu and Wojciech Pszoniak star in Andrzej Wajda’s powerful, intimate depiction of the ideological clash between the earthy, man-of-the-people Georges Danton and icy Jacobin extremist Maximilien Robespierre, both key figures of the French Revolution. By drawing parallels to Polish “solidarity,” a movement that was being quashed by the government as the film went into production, Wajda drags history into the present. Meticulous and fiery, Danton has been hailed as one of the greatest films ever made about the Terror.
SPECIAL EDITION DOUBLE-DISC SET FEATURES:
• New high-definition digital transfer
• Video interviews with director Andrzej Wajda, screenwriter Jean-Claude Carrière, and Polish film critic Jerzy Plazewski
• Wajda’s Danton, a 42-minute behind-the-scenes documentary on the making of the film
• Original theatrical trailer
• New and improved English subtitle translation
• PLUS: A new essay by film scholar Leonard Quart
Criterionforum.org user rating averages
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[img]http://criterion_production.s3.amazonaws.com/release_images/2053/Danton_348x490_w128.jpg[/img]
Gérard Depardieu and Wojciech Pszoniak star in Andrzej Wajda’s powerful, intimate depiction of the ideological clash between the earthy, man-of-the-people Georges Danton and icy Jacobin extremist Maximilien Robespierre, both key figures of the French Revolution. By drawing parallels to Polish “solidarity,” a movement that was being quashed by the government as the film went into production, Wajda drags history into the present. Meticulous and fiery, Danton has been hailed as one of the greatest films ever made about the Terror.
SPECIAL EDITION DOUBLE-DISC SET FEATURES:
• New high-definition digital transfer
• Video interviews with director Andrzej Wajda, screenwriter Jean-Claude Carrière, and Polish film critic Jerzy Plazewski
• Wajda’s Danton, a 42-minute behind-the-scenes documentary on the making of the film
• Original theatrical trailer
• New and improved English subtitle translation
• PLUS: A new essay by film scholar Leonard Quart
Criterionforum.org user rating averages
Feature currently disabled
- Cronenfly
- Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:04 pm
Re: 464 Danton
Some interesting comments about the film from YouTube (where Danton is viewable in 19 parts):
More at Wajda's official site here.Andrzej Wajda's "Danton" (1983) used the French Revolution as a metaphor for events then taking place in communist Poland, as the "Solidarity" trade union/social movement was trying to stand up in the face of suppression by Jaruzelski's government. In Wajda's words:
"'Danton' was produced on commission from Gaumont, and originally was to be produced in Poland. The imposition of martial law on the 13th of December [1981], and the ban on gatherings of more than three people, made production in our country impossible. However, owing to Margaret Menegoz's enormous efforts, we were able to transfer the whole project to Paris, taking with us some of the Polish actors and a small group of co-workers.
"...Before we began filming in Paris, while "Solidarity" was still functioning in Poland, Gérard Depardieu came to Warsaw for one day to see the revolution, and especially, to see its leaders at the moment just before the collapse of their undertaking.
"I wanted Depardieu to see the face of Revolution - inhumanly tired, with eyes wide open, suddenly falling asleep and never fully sleeping. Depardieu, guided by Krystyna Zachwatowicz, stood for a long moment in the hall of the Mazowsze Region headquarters with its endlessly milling crowds, where the history of those days was being created... No words and no director could have made a better job of introducing Gérard to the subject of my new film Danton than the scene which he saw with his own eyes." (http://www.wajda.pl" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
During this period, the media were placed under military management, and thousands of journalists (especially Solidarity sympathizers) were banned from practicing their profession. Hence the several allusions in "Danton" to suppression of free press. ("Martial Law in Poland": Wikipedia)
- Antoine Doinel
- Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:22 pm
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Re: 464 Danton
Those video interviews must be really long, or they are spreading this film and the extras quite thinly over two discs.
- HerrSchreck
- Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am
Re: 464 Danton
Never seen this. For a split-- and thoroughly deluded-- second I genuinely thought this might be the 1921 german silent.
Can anyone rhapsodise?
Can anyone rhapsodise?
- zedz
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:24 pm
Re: 464 Danton
MichaelB is surely the resident Wajda expert, so let's fire the Bat-signal his way.
I saw this once a long time ago and wasn't too impressed: a well-heeled, respectable history pic, still the right side of Europudding, but nothing I've been desperate to resee. I'd seen very little Wajda at the time (and I'm still light on his post-70s work) so I might have missed its strengths. It was in a 'French Revolution' programme surrounded by even more dire stuff (e.g. de Broca's excruciating Chouans!), so I'm inclined to think not.
I saw this once a long time ago and wasn't too impressed: a well-heeled, respectable history pic, still the right side of Europudding, but nothing I've been desperate to resee. I'd seen very little Wajda at the time (and I'm still light on his post-70s work) so I might have missed its strengths. It was in a 'French Revolution' programme surrounded by even more dire stuff (e.g. de Broca's excruciating Chouans!), so I'm inclined to think not.
- GringoTex
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:57 am
Re: 464 Danton
What he said, plus Depardieu in period is as bad as Brando in period.zedz wrote:I saw this once a long time ago and wasn't too impressed: a well-heeled, respectable history pic, still the right side of Europudding, but nothing I've been desperate to resee.
- zedz
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:24 pm
Re: 464 Danton
I'm trying to think of an exception, but you're probably right. He's even a weak link in Sous le soleil de Satan.GringoTex wrote:What he said, plus Depardieu in period is as bad as Brando in period.
- kaujot
- Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 6:28 pm
- Location: Austin
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Re: 464 Danton
What are you guys talking about? His movie-stealing scene in Branagh's Hamlet is astounding. He repeats, "Yes, my Lord," better than anyone.
- Zazou dans le Metro
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:01 am
- Location: In the middle of an Elyssian Field
Re: 464 Danton
Maybe not love for, but a certain nuzzly fondness for Danton. Based on a stage play it gains intensity by Wajda, or more to the point designer Alain Starski's insistence on closing down the drama into a stifling claustrophobic chamber piece where it works at its most intense in the verbal duelling between Pszoniak's Robespierre and Dippydoo's Danton.zedz wrote:I'm trying to think of an exception, but you're probably right. He's even a weak link in Sous le soleil de Satan.GringoTex wrote:What he said, plus Depardieu in period is as bad as Brando in period.
Also like the device of having Danton losing his sway with the people as his voice deteriorates into a hoarse whisper from over indulgence of his impassioned oration.
Not for those wanting epic crowd scenes and heads rolling.
As for GD's period outings. Cyrano, Tous les Matins, Colonel Chabert, Martin Guerre. Are they really so reviled?
True I prefer him in stuff like The Singer or Pialat but why the big diss on him in period drag?
- tojoed
- Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:47 am
- Location: Cambridge, England
Re: 464 Danton
He may be bad in period, but he's great in women's clothing in "Tenue de Soiree".GringoTex wrote:What he said, plus Depardieu in period is as bad as Brando in period.zedz wrote:I saw this once a long time ago and wasn't too impressed: a well-heeled, respectable history pic, still the right side of Europudding, but nothing I've been desperate to resee.
- Gregory
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:07 pm
Re: 464 Danton
I think The Return of Martin Guerre is an excellent historical film, though I haven't watched it in years. I don't think I've ever seen anyone else on the forum mention it before now, and it was even a Criterion LD, so yes people here do seem at least indifferent to it. It will be interesting to see if it even places as an also-ran in the upcoming list project poll -- Danton as well, for that matter.Zazou dans le Metro wrote:As for GD's period outings. Cyrano, Tous les Matins, Colonel Chabert, Martin Guerre. Are they really so reviled?
- LQ
- Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:51 am
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Re: 464 Danton
I watched both Danton and Martin Guerre in a French film class a few years ago, and enjoyed the latter much more. Maybe someone here will object, but I don't see Danton having much appeal for anyone who doesn't "enjoy" the history of the Reign of Terror. I don't really have any criticism to lob at it, it was well done but like zedz, I'm in no hurry to re-watch it. Martin Guerre, on the other hand...
- MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
- Location: Worthing
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Re: 464 Danton
...or the history of Poland immediately up to and during the time it was made.LQ wrote:I watched both Danton and Martin Guerre in a French film class a few years ago, and enjoyed the latter much more. Maybe someone here will object, but I don't see Danton having much appeal for anyone who doesn't "enjoy" the history of the Reign of Terror.
I don't buy the crude Danton=Wałęsa and Robespierre=Jaruzelski parallels that some have forced on it, but it's hard to ignore the fact that much of the cast and crew were from a country on which martial law had been imposed just before shooting was originally due to start. As a result, production relocated to France at short notice, with several personnel changes along the way - quite aside from the fact that this must have affected people's mood during the actual shoot. They were, after all, making a film about the French Revolution immediately after their own revolution had come to a sudden end (Wajda was a prominent Solidarity sympathiser and would even serve as a Solidarity senator in the Polish government years later).
Wajda has given several lengthy interviews on the Polish DVDs of his work (lengthy = often 30 minutes plus), and I suspect he has rather a lot to talk about when it comes to this particular film!Antoine Doinel wrote:Those video interviews must be really long, or they are spreading this film and the extras quite thinly over two discs.
- Polybius
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:57 pm
- Location: Rollin' down Highway 41
Re: 464 Danton
It's been a few years for me, but it seemed rather Neocon when I saw it. A bit too much in the Burke-Dostoyevsky Revolution = Meddling With The Natural Order And Leads Inevitably To Dictatorship vein for me.
I was going to mention Guerre if no one else did. Glad to see it has some supporters here.
I was going to mention Guerre if no one else did. Glad to see it has some supporters here.
- MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
- Location: Worthing
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Re: 464 Danton
Yes, but you have to consider who made it, and when. As far as Wajda was concerned, he'd just seen an all too graphic example of meddling with the natural order leading inevitably to dictatorship, and said dictatorship was very much a live issue.Polybius wrote:It's been a few years for me, but it seemed rather Neocon when I saw it. A bit too much in the Burke-Dostoyevsky Revolution = Meddling With The Natural Order And Leads Inevitably To Dictatorship vein for me.
- Polybius
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:57 pm
- Location: Rollin' down Highway 41
Re: 464 Danton
Having a crummy regime imposed by force on the country from without by another crummy, foreign regime doesn't really qualify as an indictment of all revolutions in history. I sympathize with his anger but not the conclusions he seems to reach in reaction to it.
- MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
- Location: Worthing
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Re: 464 Danton
That's not what I meant - I'm talking specifically about the events of 1978-81, which which Wajda was closely involved and which were entirely internal to Poland. (Aside from being a looming presence on the sidelines, the USSR had surprisingly little involvement during this period).Polybius wrote:Having a crummy regime imposed by force on the country from without by another crummy, foreign regime doesn't really qualify as an indictment of all revolutions in history. I sympathize with his anger but not the conclusions he seems to reach in reaction to it.
So I'm not talking about "a crummy regime imposed by force", which happened in 1944-45 - I'm talking about the vast and unprecedented success of Solidarity, the closest thing to a genuine mass revolutionary movement in 20th-century Polish history - and its seemingly near-total suppression mere weeks before the film started shooting.
- Polybius
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:57 pm
- Location: Rollin' down Highway 41
Re: 464 Danton
Right. That's what I was referring to with that phrase.MichaelB wrote:I'm not talking about "a crummy regime imposed by force", which happened in 1944-45
Something which, one would think, wouldn't sour anyone so completely on the whole idea of revolution.I'm talking specifically about the events of 1978-81, which which Wajda was closely involved and which were entirely internal to Poland. I'm talking about the vast and unprecedented success of Solidarity, the closest thing to a genuine mass revolutionary movement in 20th-century Polish history - and its seemingly near-total suppression mere weeks before the film started shooting.
It's possible that I'm just projecting, but the film seemed like it was in sympathy with a total abandonment of the idea of any sort of political and historical progress, in line with the long standing Conservative line of criticism of the French Revolution in particular and the Enlightenment era, especially as it's represented in Rousseau's thought, in general.
He seemed to suggest that Danton (who is clearly a more appealing historical figure than Robespierre...the Martov to Robespierre's Lenin, the Jefferson to his Adams, to use a couple of [very] rough parallels) is ultimately wrong in placing his faith in the ideas of the Revolution and that Robespierre, as ruthless as he is, understands the nature of the game better and thus "wins." I happily confess that I could be off base in drawing this conclusion, but if I'm not, that sort of cynicism is something that I simply can't, in the end, get behind, no matter how well it's executed.
It's a quality film, one that's at home in the Collection, but I have misgivings and reservations about it.
- MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
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Re: 464 Danton
I think it's extraordinarily unlikely that Wajda would have subscribed to that particular view. Remember, this is a prominent Solidarity activist, who had just made Man of Iron with one of the few unabashedly happy endings in his entire output, because he and his colleagues genuinely thought that Poland had turned a corner both politically and historically.Polybius wrote:It's possible that I'm just projecting, but the film seemed like it was in sympathy with a total abandonment of the idea of any sort of political and historical progress, in line with the long standing Conservative line of criticism of the French Revolution in particular and the Enlightenment era, especially as it's represented in Rousseau's thought, in general.
I'd say "despair" rather than "cynicism", and it's absolutely justified if you consider the production context.He seemed to suggest that Danton (who is clearly a more appealing historical figure than Robespierre...the Martov to Robespierre's Lenin, the Jefferson to his Adams, to use a couple of [very] rough parallels) is ultimately wrong in placing his faith in the ideas of the Revolution and that Robespierre, as ruthless as he is, understands the nature of the game better and thus "wins." I happily confess that I could be off base in drawing this conclusion, but if I'm not, that sort of cynicism is something that I simply can't, in the end, get behind, no matter how well it's executed.
I know I said above that it's too simplistic to read the film in rigidly Danton=Wałęsa terms, but it's certainly the case that a substantial number of the people who worked on the film would have been first-hand witnesses to the flowering of a spectacular and unprecedented popular movement, only to find themselves comprehensively outmanoeuvred by people who ruthlessly took advantage of the fact that Solidarity was essentially a non-violent protest group (however massive).
And for this reason I think Danton is much more successful as a snapshot of a particular Polish mindset at a particular time in Polish history than it is as an analysis of the French Revolution - hopefully Wajda will go into this in some detail in his interview, as I know he was annoyed by some of the negative criticism he got in France.
(Caveat: I haven't seen the film in ages, and I'm looking forward to rewatching it now that I'm much better informed about Wajda's other films and Polish history in general.)
- Bete_Noire
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:08 pm
Re: 464 Danton
I know you may have written that paragraph in haste, but Conservatives (both in the Burkean sense and modern American parlance) do not reject political or historical progress, and Rousseau was not a Conservative.Polybius wrote:It's possible that I'm just projecting, but the film seemed like it was in sympathy with a total abandonment of the idea of any sort of political and historical progress, in line with the long standing Conservative line of criticism of the French Revolution in particular and the Enlightenment era, especially as it's represented in Rousseau's thought, in general.
- Polybius
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:57 pm
- Location: Rollin' down Highway 41
Re: 464 Danton
I hope you're right. If so this whole discussion is pretty much moot (which is why I was throwing qualifications around like Santa tossing candy from a parade float.)MichaelB wrote:I think it's extraordinarily unlikely that Wajda would have subscribed to that particular view.
(Relatively) short term despair and disappointment is easily understandable in the context of that production. Slipping into a more long term cynical and crabby view, like the one I described, (which has long historical roots but was particularly in vogue at the time here in the US and in most of Europe), is a different proposition.
I think you may have read that paragraph in haste. I've bolded the key part above. There has always been a front of conservative criticism (maybe it's a kind of conservatism you don't agree with, but it's still there), of the Enlightment, especially as it was embodied in Rousseau's ideas.Bete_Noire wrote:I know you may have written that paragraph in haste, but Conservatives (both in the Burkean sense and modern American parlance) do not reject political or historical progress, and Rousseau was not a Conservative.Polybius wrote:It's possible that I'm just projecting, but the film seemed like it was in sympathy with a total abandonment of the idea of any sort of political and historical progress, in line with the long standing Conservative line of criticism of the French Revolution in particular and the Enlightenment era, especially as it's represented in Rousseau's thought, in general.
- menthymenthy
- Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:11 am
Re: 464 Danton
I don't think it's Wajda's best film, but it is a handsome production.
I've noticed that a few of Wajda's films were incredibly badly made (The Conductor), which seem like he didn't bother trying. Danton was well made, though it is quite the dire film - though at times incredibly powerful.
I've noticed that a few of Wajda's films were incredibly badly made (The Conductor), which seem like he didn't bother trying. Danton was well made, though it is quite the dire film - though at times incredibly powerful.
- Bete_Noire
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:08 pm
Re: 464 Danton
No, because in your original post, you capitalized Conservative which muddled what you might have been asserting. While certain aspects of Rousseau's thought might be characterized as conservative (in the generic sense, i.e., "resisting change"), he had little to do with Conservatism as a mode of political thought or disposition as exemplified by Edmund Burke or David Hume, or for more contemporary examples, Michael Oakeshott and Russell Kirk. The Conservative critique of the Enlightenment does not reject progress, as you claimed; nor does it romanticize the "noble savage" (a term he did not use himself, yet still accurately represents his thought) as Rousseau did.I think you may have read that paragraph in haste. I've bolded the key part above. There has always been a front of conservative criticism (maybe it's a kind of conservatism you don't agree with, but it's still there), of the Enlightment, especially as it was embodied in Rousseau's ideas.
- MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
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Re: 464 Danton
Yes, I was startled by how poor The Conductor was, starting with the painful miscasting of John Gielgud. Great actor he certainly was, but he never remotely convinced me that he was either Polish or a master musician, and the truly atrocious dubbing didn't help (for starters, his 'Polish' voice didn't sound remotely like his English one, a significant oversight given that Gielgud has one of the most instantly recognisable voices of any actor). Krystyna Janda tries hard (I honestly don't think I've ever seen her give a bad performance in anything), but she's not helped by the clunky script.dmk_world wrote:I don't think it's Wajda's best film, but it is a handsome production.
I've noticed that a few of Wajda's films were incredibly badly made (The Conductor), which seem like he didn't bother trying.
It's a shame, because the subject was clearly close to Wajda's heart, and the film's full of lots of sly digs at a system that routinely elevates the mediocre over the inspired. The trouble is, the "inspired" wasn't really that inspired, so the message was muffled.
Why "dire"?Danton was well made, though it is quite the dire film - though at times incredibly powerful.
- Polybius
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:57 pm
- Location: Rollin' down Highway 41
Re: 464 Danton
I really don't know how I can make this any clearer to you: I did NOT assert that Rousseau was any sort of conservative, under any definition that one could muster. I am associating Rousseau with the Enlightenment, which stands opposite certain forms of Conservatism. He was a radical then and he still pretty much is and as such has often been the target of conservative (or Conservative, if you prefer) criticism of the Enlightment in general (Dostoyevsky and his contemporary bonehead wannabe Solzhenitsyn) and the French Revolution in particular (which was more Burke's bailiwick.)Bete_Noire wrote:No, because in your original post, you capitalized Conservative which muddled what you might have been asserting. While certain aspects of Rousseau's thought might be characterized as conservative (in the generic sense, i.e., "resisting change"), he had little to do with Conservatism as a mode of political thought or disposition as exemplified by Edmund Burke or David Hume, or for more contemporary examples, Michael Oakeshott and Russell Kirk. The Conservative critique of the Enlightenment does not reject progress, as you claimed; nor does it romanticize the "noble savage" (a term he did not use himself, yet still accurately represents his thought) as Rousseau did.I think you may have read that paragraph in haste. I've bolded the key part above. There has always been a front of conservative criticism (maybe it's a kind of conservatism you don't agree with, but it's still there), of the Enlightment, especially as it was embodied in Rousseau's ideas.
If I'd known this was going to turn into Abbott and Costello Go On Firing Line I would've skipped the whole thing. The last thing I want is to be the "originator" of a thread in Infighting.