503 Lola Montès

[Zazou dans le Metro]

Coming on Blu in France at the end of the month. No specs yet.

[Ben Cheshire]

Apparently it was made in three languages. I presume this means three separate dubs and not portions of the one dub performed in three languages.

Either way, please please please let there be english subs/dub... Some way in for me to understand it!

[Ben Cheshire]

That's not accurate. ... In any case Max originally intended to make Lola as a trilingual film but the producer kyboshed that...

Thanks for clearing that up, David. Also, it appears that something dreadful has gone wrong with the FR Blu Ray release of Lola. Its release day came around on Amazon.fr, and then its gotten pulled or (hopefully) delayed...

Also, it was confirmed as not having English subs by Amazon.fr's customer support, but they've advised me wrongly before (see: "sure, that'll be the cover art for Gremlins BD... Not!") Their web site still lists different cover art to that being delivered to customers.

[Ben Cheshire]

That's disappointing, but I'm glad you told me. I'm going to officially stop looking forward to this, and then wait for reviews once it comes out. I don't mind buying SD-DVDs while I'm waiting, so I might get that French set of four Ophuls; but there's nothing worse than a disappointing HD release.

[Peacock]

Bad news...
After I asked on Facebook whether we would be receiving the Marcel restro or the German, I got this reply:

Ours will be the recent restoration of the French version, not the German version, which is what it seems you are referring to.

Looks like there's no hope for seeing Max's preferred version now.

[Ben Cheshire]

Without reading up on the different versions, I'll be seeing it for the first time, so as long as its a good BD I'll be happy.

[Peacock]

Ah thank you David for the clarification, I held off getting the Second Sight release after reading the French version had several cuts and the ending tracking shot was much shorter, is this the case?

[Ben Cheshire]

I firmly disgaree with Marcel's posiition on that one, although I cant argue with the bloody French legal system.

I have both sorrow AND pity over this.

[Matt]

announced

[Tommaso]

While the commentary seems to be the same, the other extras are much different from the Second Sight. Given that the CC also has removable subs, I feel the urge to double-dip. I even feel a greater urge to buy a Blu player....argh....

[knives]

With all the confused hubaballoh about this film, and the other three Ophuls, I'm a bit wary. From what I understand concerning Lola is that the trouble is with different cuts in different languages, does this mean the criterion version will be a butchered cut or will it be fine enough for me to plunge to.
Also is the problem with the other three solely in the quality of the transfers or is it something more severe?

[Matt]

The problems with Criterion's previous Ophuls discs are painstakingly cataloged in the thread for those releases, so there's no reason to repeat it all here.

I don't think you should let the issue of the variant versions of the film distract you from the fact that this is a great film. If you like the other Ophuls films you've seen, then you will like this one. As far as quality goes, I did not see the theatrical re-release, but if Criterion feels confident enough in the quality of the image to release it on Blu-ray, I think it will look very good.

[swo17]

Speaking for the three already released, I don't know what complaints you might be referring to (A drunk-sounding PTA "introducing" Madame de? The packaging being in digipaks despite each only having one disc? The fact that they weren't boxed together?) but there's certainly not anything wrong enough with them to prevent you from enjoying these wonderful films.

As for Lola, this is the best way you're going to be able to see it for some time, and as david hare has said earlier in this thread (and he seems to know what he's talking about here), it's probably the closest of any version to the ideal cut.

Not watching this because of the version controversy would be like holding off on watching Greed until they find those pesky missing five hours of footage.

[knives]

Thanks Swo and Matt for clarifying the situation. The flaws I had heard about was that Le Plaisar was the worst transfer they had done since The Scarlet Emprss and that La Ronde was a butchered cut.

[tajmahal]

The Second Sight R2 and Madman R4 port of Madame de are to be avoided at all costs - there is persistent digital noise througout the image as a result of a faulty systems transfer and the entire image is unstable. They are unviewable in my opinion. The Criterion Madame de is just perfect - I only wish they would do it in Blu.

I borrowed the Madman disc from the library, and I did persist because I was captivated by the film-making genius of Ophuls.
If I had purchased the dvd, I would have returned it as a faulty disc. I don't know how they can, in all conscience, release what is one of the worst transfers I have viewed. (The R4 Dersu Uzala IS unwatchable!)

My Criterion Madame De is on the way, and I'm very much looking forward to watching it again. From the screengrabs I've seen, It will be like watching the film for the first time.

[Tommaso]

The Criterion Le Plaisir is just fine, as is the PAL Second Sight R2 and Madman R4. The Criterion and Second Sight La Rondes (and the other PAL regional ports of SS) are all fine, although the two telecines look different - I think the Pal is brightness boosted but it's still quite nice.

Good to read that finally someone does justice to these transfers. There simply is no problem with them; I can't understand why people constantly blame Criterion for the shape that the source materials are in (or would anyone have liked to have these films as Eclipse releases?). So yes: "La Ronde" has some occasionally very visible tramlines and other small flaws, but that is entirely due to the prints available, and the transfer itself is completely flawless. I haven't seen the CC "Plaisir" yet, but would also say that the SS looks nice, but is sadly contrast boosted and thus often too bright. From reviewing the Beaver caps, I'd say, go for the CC which doesn't seem to have this problem and has removable subs. Finally, I suppose the CC of "Lola" will look better on SD than the Second Sight, simply because the bitrate will be higher. But that said: the film looks absolutely eye-popping on the SS already, despite of some minor compression problems there. So I cannot imagine the CC to be anything but stunning, even on standard dvd.

[Florinaldo]

Finally! And with a Blu-Ray edition, no less. With a Marcel Ophüls documentary added to Susan White's commentary (I liked her vey much in previous outings on Max's films); despite the vitriol younger Ophüls sems to inspire in some people, his perspective on his father's final movie should be instructive and enlightening.

And I am glad to see some sanity has returned with regards to comments on previous Ophüls releases from CC, which I felt were unfairly slammed by some posters. It is always a wonder that films from many decades ago can survive the tribulations of disputed ownership or of dubious storage conditions; we can only be grateful that source material can still be found that looks as good as it does, without being quite in the pristine condition of the original release.

[hangman]

Ah well at least if one does opt to double dip on this title from the second sight it would be for the Blu-ray, assuming you'd have one by then Part of the gripe with the Ophus titles released on CC was that it deviated from the original plan of being a boxset, which would've made purchasing and double dipping much easier. Along with some disappointment that the titles couldn't be improved further from the SS (course as noted thats print material itself but also in terms of stackin it with extras, who wouldn't be disappointed that save Madame De and the booklets they pretty much ported over the extras of SS without adding much of their own and if they did add their own well... Anderson was that painful though the commentary was nice but nothing that spectacular especially after reading and hearing Gallagher's pieces), plus picture boxing...

I hope the audio fairs better in the Blu-ray there instances were Lola's lines were almost like squeeks, along with some other characters.

[Ben Cheshire]

David, you are a font of info on Ophuls. Very useful rundown of the different editions.

I've avoided the Criterions of La Ronde and Earrings because I heard they were pictureboxed; if I wanted to avoid letterboxing, would you therefore recommend the Second Sight, or do you think the PQ of the Criterions is better?

PS, SO excited about Lola on blu.

[Stefan Andersson]

Sad to see CC did not opt for the trims from the English-language Lola. Droessler showed some in L.A. according to some US movie blog (sorry, lost the link, which I found by trawling through half a dozen pages of Google hits).

The Droessler German-lang. Lola interests me because all or most of the principal actors speak German in their own voices (Carol was partly dubbed according to the Cinematheque Francaise site on Lola). Yes, MO wanted a multilingual film, but historically, he signed up for three films in three principal languages, so maybe the primarily German and French-language edits should be viewed as equally "original", but the multilingual edition as MO´s "director´s cut".

La Ronde shortened by MO himself I can live with.

Here´s hoping CC does Caught, Letter and Reckless Moment also.

[4LOM]

That's not accurate. There's a long history to Lola which ahs been covered here but it's scattered all over a number of threads. In any case Max originally intended to make Lola as a trilingual film but the producer kyboshed that so he shot a German lanaguage version (with the actors dubbing themselves, including Martine) and a French version again with the actors dubbing themselves. He never shot an English version and the English dub travesty "Sins of Lola Montez" is not Max's work. The other two are substantially the same but with a large number of different takes, and obviously different soundtracks. Both versions have brief scenes in which actors speak in English and/of German or French rather than the native language of that version. The German version is around in boots from an Arte broadcast with subs. And the French version is available with subs from Second sight. Marcel suppressed the German version at least outside Germany as not corresponding to his father's wishes. Brad Stevens post above documents some of the differences betwen the new restoration and the older 60s Beauregard release print which runs a few minutes shorter, is less wide than the full 2.4 Scope and in mono with washed out color.

Are you sure that a English version was never shot?

In 1956 Max Ophüls responded to the accusation by the press that his slow work style was responsible for the enormous budget of 6 Millionen Mark with these words:

„Drehen waren hundert Tage, die man mir kolossal vorwirft, die muss ich immer wieder fressen, alle Leute sagen zu lange usw. und besonders die Industrie wirft das vor, aber dabei ist ein Rechenfehler, [...] eine Legende, die ich zerstören muss, [...] Es muss gesagt sein, dass in diesen hundert Tagen ein Film in drei vollen Versionen entstanden ist, d.h. also eigentlich hat der Film 33 1/3 Tage gedauert. Das ist für mich wahnsinnig schnell.“

A short translation:
Ophüls said that people and mainly the industry accused him for shooting for 100 days. He said, that this was a legend, because he shot three different versions of the movie in 100 days, so that the film took only 33 1/3 days, being very quick for him.

Ophüls speaks of three different versions again:

"Die Hauptschauspieler dieses Films haben tatsächlich drei Sprachen nicht nur gemeistert [...], sondern drei Mentalitäten, in dem sie die drei Versionen des Films hergestellt haben“.

Ophüls said, that the actors not only mastered three different languages but also three different mentalities by shooting three different versions of the film.



Here's a summary of an German speaking article I published in February 2009 on my website. I culled these infos from an article by Helmut G. Asper (author of the Ophüls biography "Max Ophüls") about the restoration / reconstruction of the German speaking version (presented in Film-Dienst 16/2002) and from the infos on Cinematografie des Holocaust:

Ophüls shot „Lola Montès“ in three different versions: In French, German and English with the last one never had a theatrical run. The German and French premiere versions had multilingual sound tracks (partial subtitled). The first French version had its premiere in Paris on 12/22/1955, the first German version on 01/12/1956 in Munich but both versions were not received very well by both the press and the audience. So Ophüls was forced to recut both versions. The foreign language scenes were redubbed, subtitles were removed and the sound track was newly mixed for better understandibility away from Ophüls preferred sound mix with a more naturalistic touch.

The results:
First French version: 3117 meters / 113:56 minutes
Second French version: 3009 meters / 110 minutes (Premiere: 01/20/1956 in Paris)

First German version: 3158 meters / 115:25 minutes
Second German version: 3093 meters / 113:03 minutes (Premiere: 02/09/1956 in Berlin)

On 02/21/1957 a third French version had its premiere in Toulouse with 2510 meters / 91 minutes. This version was shortened and recut to a chronological order.

A third German chronological version had its premiere in Frankfurt/Main on 12/03/1957. This version had a length of 2795 meters / 102 minutes.

The British version was heavily cut to 2468 meters / 90 minutes, the US version to 2080 meters / 75 minutes.

In 1967/1968 the film had re-releases in Germany and France. Presented were the second versions compiled from duplicate negatives. In 1955 CinemaScope had an aspect ratio of 2.55:1 with 4 track magnetic stereo audio. In 1967/1968 the aspect ratio for scope was 2.35:1 with an optical mono audio track. The newly made „Lola Montès“ prints were in 2.35:1 with lost picture informations on the left side.

The Munich Filmmuseum owns the only surviving 4 track magnetic stereo print of the second German version with the original aspect ratio of 2.55:1. The Cinématheque Royale de Belgique owns the French premiere version in 2.55:1. Still available are theatrical prints of the second German and French versions and a duplicate negative of the second French version. Original negative materials survived only for the French and German chronological versions but with good colors.

In 1997 the Munich Filmmuseum began the reconstruction of the German premiere version. Seven different materials with a length of 500 minutes were used. An exact reconstruction of the German premiere version wasn't possible, because the missing scenes from this version are lost. For these blemishes the corresponding scenes from the French premiere version were used. A guide for the reconstrucion was the original shooting script.

The reconstruction and restoration was the first digital one done in Germany. The source materials were scanned in 1920x1080. The audio was taken from the 4 track magnetic stereo, recut, restored and newly mixed to Ophüls intended audio mix. A guide for this new mix was again the French premiere version. From this digital restoration/reconstruction new theatrical prints were created with a Dolby Digital audio track and the original 2.55:1 aspect ratio printed in the 2.39:1 frame of todays anamorphic 35mm prints.

I have not seen the new restoration by Marcel Ophüls. Is it a restoration of the still available French premiere version or was the redubbed second French version used as the main source with the addition of the missing scenes?

[johnny carson]

As for the longer La Ronde - I cannot describe how much - dammit - better it is than the already fine 95 minute version. Most of Walbrook's scenes are amplified to the point where he engages far more withe chyaracter spassing by, usually just after you've seen him walk through a very flatly lit part of the set. And the censor shot qwith the scissors is a different take to the current one. There is also some alternate dailgoue, and all of this has the effect of hypothetically inserting Walbrrok far more into the film as a character, until of course he withdraws into the "role" of Max' amenuensis. And there is at least a minute more of the sublime final scene with Miranda and Philipppe which is incomparably beautiful, much of it shot through the rails of the bed head. Believe me!!! Marcel should eb pressured to relent on this.

Interesting info on La Ronde.

Could someone with enough knowledge on law tell us what happens if, let's say, Marcel dies tomorrow or on November 23rd. As far as i understand he has the rights to his fathers films, and those will be passed to someone by his testament or whatever. But can he (again by testament, let's say) forbid the forthcoming holders of those rights to let the "complete" La Ronde to be released?

[Florinaldo]

As for the longer La Ronde - I cannot describe how much - dammit - better it is than the already fine 95 minute version. Most of Walbrook's scenes are amplified to the point where he engages far more withe chyaracter spassing by, usually just after you've seen him walk through a very flatly lit part of the set.

Very interesting since it may help explain how my long-ago memories of the film did not quite jibe with the version avaialble on DVD. All this time I remembered the meneur de jeu having much more interaction with the action and was rather perplexed not to find ihim as involved as I thought I had seen him in my original viewing.

Furthermore, I don't remember noticing the very apparent change when we go from Walbrook's own voice to the actor Ophüls decided to use for dubbing him in most of the movie. Perhaps I was not attentive enough or could it be that in that longer print there is no dubbing of this fine actor?

One final question : how widely distributed was that longer cut and how did it manage to turn up on the French CBC all this time ago, unless it is simply my memory playing tricks with me?

[tojoed]

DVD Beaver on the Blu-Ray.

[Florinaldo]

DVD Beaver on the Blu-Ray.

It looks like our high expectations have been met by Criterion.

Want to start a betting pool on how long before people start saying that Beaver's captures are all wrong and this is the worst transfer possible?