422 The Last Emperor

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Jeff
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:49 pm
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#151 Post by Jeff » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:13 am

Dylan wrote:Am I mistaken or aren't most (all?) 70mm prints of 2.35:1 films cropped to 2.00:1?
2.20:1

kekid
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:55 pm

#152 Post by kekid » Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:58 pm

Storaro seems to be unanimously condemned here for his artistic decision on DVD versions of this (and perhaps other) films. It is reasonanble to assume that he would want these films to be seen in best possible form by the DVD audience, therefore his decisions represent his honest judgment. Why would a creator of these magnificent images make (what a majority of members on this forum consider) poor decisions on his own creations? I would like to see if someone can suggest the thought process that might have led him to these decisions. (Filling the TV screen seems to be an unlikely, though possible, explanation). To form a considered view on the issue we need to understand the creator's rationale.

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HerrSchreck
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#153 Post by HerrSchreck » Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:55 pm

The problem is there is no authoritative arbiter for right or wrong or "looks better" or "looks worse" on dvd screens. A film or piece of art represents a time capsule on the state of the artist(s) at the time the film was made-- not At Time of DVD Release. If a cinematographer starts dropping acid or shooting dope and develops strange new ideas about "the eye" and "spacial perfection vis a tv screen" it sounds like he's forgotten the state of his mind when making a film in question and is focused more on his role as Cinematographic Theorist For The Ages... and should be whipped away from the telecine room where a film made long before the hatchling Special Theory first kicked it's way out the retarded little egg.

How can a museum hold a retrospective on the development-- stylistic and technical-- of a painter if the fucking guy wants to stagger around the MoMA with a corrective paintbrush bringing each painting, some decades old, up to his present state? What good does this do? What happens in the future if his ideas change? Let him in again and mess with them? That's bullshit in my view, and Criterion should be a little embarassed about this sort of Hobnobbing Revisionism which has been allowed ONLY because of Storaros present state of prestige.

This is why Sam Fuller says "you have to think your film out when you have the chance-- which is when you make it... you can't say after a bad premiere 'well I really meant to to THIS but I couldnt get it to work right', you'll look like a schmuck."

Indulgence of Artistic Creampuffs if you ask me. And this is coming from me who always considered Storaro the true heir of John Alton. I worship this man's work.

The most important thing to know how to do in the visual arts is to say "this work is finished"... many a painter ruins works by endless revision and correction and suck the power of the Moment right out of the work. In my view this whole "Director Approved" issue, responsible for so many mindblowingly wonderful CC releases, puts them in a vulnerable position every here and there with dilletantes who don't know how to leave their past alone. In my view-- only mine-- someone like Storaro is unfortunately at this time the least authoritative or weight-carrying soul on the block when it comes to establishing the state of this picture upon its release. He should be bound and gagged and shot off of Solaris until telecine is over. Then they can reel the ship back in. He cannot contend with the power, flaws and all, of his youthful self, vs his present Professorial Role.

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Gregory
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#154 Post by Gregory » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:25 pm

Then again many major artists seem to think of their works as in-progress until they die, and nothing any of us can say or do will change this. I don't have a problem with such tinkering in theory (it's up for debate how often this kind of thing yields worthwhile results) as long as the version with which the artist was originally satisfied remains equally available. The point at which I have a problem with what Storaro is doing is when he prevents or makes it difficult for Criterion or whomever to release the reference version. It's especially disappointing in this case, considering that Criterion has with several of their releases included as an alternate version something the filmmaker actually hated from day one.

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HerrSchreck
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#155 Post by HerrSchreck » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:49 pm

Gregory wrote:Then again many major artists seem to think of their works as in-progress until they die, and nothing any of us can say or do will change this.
That's pretty self evident from the fact that we were having this discussion. But appreciate the stern yellow highlighter marker.

The problem is that when a film is done, it represents the work of more than one person, not just one. If a painter wants to go ahead and turn a vibrant painting all his own into mush- fine. But a film is a sum of many parts. If an actor feels as though they could go back and shoot a retake a performance which was not "perfect" why can't they go back and make adjustments to their performance? Why is Storaro being indulged?

Because he's Storaro, plain and simple. I just don't think CC had the cojones to stand up to him. The film now looks the worst I've ever seen it.

Artists who don't know when to call their works finished, and see them as neverending projects (that's what the next project is for, to follow the development of your ideas) usually suck toilet. Storaro is a rare example of a genuis tippling over into knucklehead richmanville. Not to say he still doesn't posess some of the genuis he once had.

Give me Victor Erice "Once I finish my movie it no longer belongs to me, it belongs to the people" any day. Or Fuller. This sort of of self-conscious handwringing... leaving the gut for the terrain of the head... is not my flavor of gelato.

... there's also the issue of who the film belongs to. If a painter has sold his canvasses to someone (or the museum) it no longer belongs to him. If Storaro doesn't own the rights to the film why is he given carte blanche for modification? If a painter owns all his own paintings (the way zappa owned all his masters, and tried-- once, to furious howls which forced him to reverse him self-- to add new bass & drums to we're only in it for the money) he can wheedle till the cows come home.

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MichaelB
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#156 Post by MichaelB » Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:26 am

HerrSchreck wrote:there's also the issue of who the film belongs to. If a painter has sold his canvasses to someone (or the museum) it no longer belongs to him. If Storaro doesn't own the rights to the film why is he given carte blanche for modification? If a painter owns all his own paintings (the way zappa owned all his masters, and tried-- once, to furious howls which forced him to reverse him self-- to add new bass & drums to we're only in it for the money) he can wheedle till the cows come home.
Which is why I won my argument with the Quay Brothers over including their first film Nocturna Artificialia on their DVD - they were dead against it, but the BFI owned it outright, so they couldn't do anything to stop me. (We did compromise by tucking it away on the extras disc, though, and I kept my promise not to cut out the bits in the interview where they slagged it off).

On the other hand, they were able to veto the inclusion of other early titles - and I've no idea if these will ever see the light of day again.

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HerrSchreck
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#157 Post by HerrSchreck » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:27 am

This is truly the first topic I really wish the CC producer who handled this project (or whoever okayed the modif) would come onto the forum and have a brief Q&A.

Interesting on how its a film I don't really care much for. But given their propensity for "director approved editions"/"cinematographer-supervised telecine" (creating the possibility of getting "pushed around" a bit so to speak by revisionist desire via changing artistic temperaments of aging artists), and stated desire to restore these vintage films as much as possible to their premiere condition (against which this release leaves a black mark), it's a possibly hot topic vs their mission statement.

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MichaelB
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#158 Post by MichaelB » Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:24 am

HerrSchreck wrote:Interesting on how its a film I don't really care much for. But given their propensity for "director approved editions"/"cinematographer-supervised telecine" (creating the possibility of getting "pushed around" a bit so to speak by revisionist desire via changing artistic temperaments of aging artists), and stated desire to restore these vintage films as much as possible to their premiere condition (against which this release leaves a black mark), it's a possibly hot topic vs their mission statement.
An exemplary current example is the new Second Sight DVD of Joseph Losey's Don Giovanni, which I believe is a clone of the French edition.

They provide ample evidence (in the form of facsimiles of blistering letters setting out numerous objections) that Losey hated the original Dolby Stereo mix, and there's no doubt at all that the two new mixes sourced from the original 16-track master (one replicating the original speaker configuration, the other a truly mindblowing DTS 5.1 96/24 remix, both supervised by the original sound recordist) are vastly superior for all sorts of reasons...

...but they also included the original Dolby mix, for the benefit of people who don't like post-original-release tinkering.

(That said, the PAL transfer process has pushed it up a semitone, while the two new mixes have been pitch-corrected, so it's not a perfect replica of the original 1979 version).

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MichaelB
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#159 Post by MichaelB » Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:44 pm

davidhare wrote:Why on earth couldnt they have pitch corrected the two channel track? I can even do this with the "truePal" faclitiy on my crappy version of WinDVD.
I've no idea - maybe they assumed that anyone who wanted to listen to the original Dolby Stereo even after hearing about Losey's total contempt for it (expressed at the time of the original mix, not years later in a fit of revisionism) was probably so tin-eared that they wouldn't notice?

Or maybe the phasing problems in the original track (a side-effect of using a miking technique for the live recordings of the recitatives that the Dolby system didn't get on with) sounded even worse after pitch-shifting?

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tavernier
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#160 Post by tavernier » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:12 pm

If you want to buy it a week early, Landmark Theatres is selling it Feb. 19:
LANDMARK THEATRES TO OFFER EXCLUSIVE ON BERTOLUCCI’S ‘THE LAST EMPEROR’ DVD

LOS ANGELES (February 12, 2008) – Landmark Theatres patrons will get an exclusive, one-week opportunity to purchase Criterion’s 4-disc special edition release of Bernardo Bertolucci’s gorgeous epic, THE LAST EMPEROR before its wide release on February 26. Landmark, known for its in-theatre retail sales of uncommon and hard to find DVDs, books and CDs, will stock THE LAST EMPEROR at its theatres nationwide one week early, starting February 19.

Bernardo Bertolucci's THE LAST EMPEROR won nine Academy Awards® unexpectedly sweeping every category in which it was nominated—quite a feat for a challenging, multilayered epic directed by an Italian and starring an international cast. Yet the power and scope of the film was, and remains, undeniable—the life of Emperor Pu Yi, who took the throne at age three, in 1908, before witnessing decades of cultural and political upheaval, within and without the walls of the Forbidden City. Recreating Ching dynasty China with astonishing detail and unparalleled craftsmanship by cinematographer Vittorio Storaro and production designer Ferdinando Scarfiotti, THE LAST EMPEROR is also an intimate character study of one man reconciling personal responsibility and political legacy.

The film was previously only available in a basic, one-disc version, and has been out of print for years. The new release features four discs of material, including an all-new, restored high-definition digital transfer of the film, supervised and approved by cinematographer Vittorio Storaro, commentary by director Bernardo Bertolucci, producer Jeremy Thomas, screenwriter Mark Peploe, and composer-actor Ryuichi Sakamoto, multiple documentaries, interviews with Composer David Byrne and Bertolucci, and more.

The DVD will be available for purchase at all participating Landmark Theatres locations for $49.99 (nearly $10.00 off the SRP) starting February 19.

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Barmy
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 3:59 pm

#161 Post by Barmy » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:22 pm

Yes, it's certainly worth paying $8 over the amazon price to get it a week early. #-o :| =P~ :?

EDIT: plus presumably you have to pay sales tax. :shock: :evil: :twisted: :roll:
Last edited by Barmy on Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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domino harvey
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#162 Post by domino harvey » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:37 pm

This is an outrage! How dare they change Criterion's vision of it streeting on February 26 by cropping a full week from the release date!

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zedz
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#163 Post by zedz » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:15 pm

This film is really not a favourite, so I've only just looked at the Beaver comparison caps, but I have to agree that, on the basis of these, the Criterion colour scheme looks nothing like what I saw on the big screen. In fact, none of the comparisons remotely resembles the colours I recall - certainly not the queasy green-dominated R2.

Maybe it looks better in action. If you remove the eye-candy factor from this film there's not much left, in my opinion, so if those caps are representative this release isn't doing anybody any favours.

kevyip1
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:07 pm

#164 Post by kevyip1 » Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:51 pm

The Optimum disc is not included in DVDBeaver's comparison, but I own the Optimum disc, and I can tell you it looks very similar to the French Gaumont disc. IOW, Criterion's picture quality is clearly the winner and is a revelation, and now I'm strongly inclined to purchase this somewhat overpriced disc set. The cropping is a concern, and, yes, the colors don't look exactly like what I recall seeing in the theater, but this is, after all, a Bertolucci/Storaro approved transfer, and I trust their judgment over my 20-year-old recollection.

Also, Gary Tooze told me the great making-of documentary on the Optimum disc is also available on the Criterion disc.

Gary also said the Bertolucci/Thomas/Sakamoto audio commentary on the Criterion disc contains a mixture of comments from the Optimum disc and newly-recorded comments.

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exte
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#165 Post by exte » Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:06 pm

I'd gladly add this to my collection, but not for the price they're asking. Can't they have just a solo disc version to sell as well? Jeez...

kevyip1
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#166 Post by kevyip1 » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:17 pm

I don't like the laserdisc pricing either ($69.99 SRP), but the picture does look better than the other DVDs. Let's hope the extras are good.

Some of you criticized Storaro's "revisionistic" attempt. The photography was perfect as it was in the first place, so why do you think he would feel the need to revise it? It looked beautiful when I saw it in the theater 20 years ago, and the Criterion screencaps show that it still looks beautiful. Yes, the colors look different from what we recall, but they still look good, certainly the best they ever look on DVD. The greyishness is indeed more pronounced in some screencaps, but the redness and flesh tones also look better. This is a FLAT OUT better video transfer than the Optimum disc, and I'm amazed none of you can see that.

The Storaro interview discusses only the cropping issue (and I did say earlier that I was concerned by it). My comments were mainly about the color scheme on the Criterion disc, which some of you wrongheadedly criticized. The colors looked good 20 years ago and they look good now. They look the best they've ever looked on DVD; you people have to admit at least that.

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jsteffe
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#167 Post by jsteffe » Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:47 am

Yes, it looks better than it has ever looked before on video, and I'll even cut Storaro a little slack as to how he wants his own film to look on DVD. Perhaps there were some very precise color effects he wanted to achieve then that he can only do now, though I'm skeptical of that.

What I can say is that the film doesn't look like I saw it in the theater when it came out. I saw it shortly after it opened in Los Angeles, at one of the theaters in Universal City in a 70mm blowup. The projection was, for that time, state-of-the-art. I sat slack-jawed most of the time--I remember very clearly thinking to myself "This is the most beautiful color film I have ever seen." It had such vividness and tactility, especially in the Forbidden City segment at the beginning of the film. Yes there were weaknesses in the acting, but the photography and production design were unparalleled.

Also, the color scheme was definitely different during the prison "re-education" portions of the film. The colors were not so obviously desaturated, and there were more pronounced blue-gray undertones in the image.

I need to withold final judgment until I see the DVD itself, but the screencaps just don't begin to convey that unforgettable richness. I'm afraid the dazzlement might have vanished in the telecine lab.

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TheRanchHand
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#168 Post by TheRanchHand » Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:42 pm

Just picked a copy of this up here in Los Angeles. Looks like it came out a little early. :D

HUGE box. Even looks thicker than The Seven Samurai. Will try and watch the film over the weekend. Haven't seen it in about 10 years so looking forward to it.

kevyip1
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#169 Post by kevyip1 » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:01 pm

TheRanchHand wrote:Just picked a copy of this up here in Los Angeles. Looks like it came out a little early. :D

HUGE box. Even looks thicker than The Seven Samurai. Will try and watch the film over the weekend. Haven't seen it in about 10 years so looking forward to it.
Must be a really thick book(let). I'm still amazed by this royal treatment given to this title. They probably want to trump the UK Optimum edition and the earlier R1 edition.

Still, this should've been a blu-ray release. It's just sad that an SD release comes out right at the moment Blu-ray won the format war.

I emailed Mulvaney about the possibility of a blu-ray, but no reply yet. No reply is good! That means they are probably thinking about it. If there was no possibility, they would've replied me right away.

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starmanof51
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#170 Post by starmanof51 » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:18 pm

kevyip1 wrote:I emailed Mulvaney about the possibility of a blu-ray, but no reply yet. No reply is good! That means they are probably thinking about it. If there was no possibility, they would've replied me right away.
It's nice that they do sometimes respond to inquiries but frequently they don't. Don't take the lack of a quick response or lack of any response at all to signify anything other than luck of the draw.

In the meantime I've ordered a used copy of the Optimum for a relative pittance and am content.

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Ivy Mike
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#171 Post by Ivy Mike » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:05 pm

Saw this at the Egyptian the other night and am strongly considering picking up the DVD. Unfortunately, I have never seen the film before, and so I wouldn't be too familiar with changes in the coloring (noticed the cropping on shots that people have discussed so far) - that's too bad if the color was substantially changed, although I must say the cinematography was still incredibly impressive.

Where in L.A. did you pick it up, and for how much? I think I'll save money and grab it from Deep Discount, but just curious. It would be nice to have this one on high def, but I can't imagine that's gonna happen anytime soon, even with the format war over now - will be interesting to see how and when Criterion decides to go forth with high def plans.

PNeski
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#172 Post by PNeski » Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:25 pm

It's funny that there's a lot about what Storaro did with the color in this thread. While I think he's nuts to crop everything to 2.01, even if the "last Supper" is that aspect ratio, none of his other paintings are that size, the New DVD is worth getting just for the extras, which are great!

As for the color, I think its better most of the time. The Pal versions (English+French) are better only in certain scenes, and are too yellow, While Storaro might have lost his mind about composition (check the third book in his series, which is full of double exposures), I feel he still knows what he's doing when it comes to everything else like color and light.

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Fletch F. Fletch
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#173 Post by Fletch F. Fletch » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:27 am

Home Media Magazine has an article on a screening of the film with some of the folks from Criterion showing up.

Narshty
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#174 Post by Narshty » Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:49 pm

It's Peter Becker's favourite film? Really?

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Darth Lavender
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#175 Post by Darth Lavender » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:17 pm

For what little it counts; I definitely remember seeing this on VHS and noticing how green the prison scenes were.

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