411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

Discuss DVDs and Blu-rays released by Criterion and the films on them. If it's got a spine number, it's in here. Threads may contain spoilers.
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denti alligator
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#401 Post by denti alligator » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:04 pm

Will this be the right speed?

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senseabove
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#402 Post by senseabove » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:12 pm

denti alligator wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:04 pm
Will this be the right speed?
Nope, you'll have to get the Second Sight UK set to get it at 25fps.

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movielocke
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#403 Post by movielocke » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:15 pm

Technical question for us North American households, is there any reason streaming couldn’t be at 25 FPS? Will our TVs handle a 25 FPS stream?

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domino harvey
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#404 Post by domino harvey » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:21 pm

Many will not, depends on the TV

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movielocke
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#405 Post by movielocke » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:38 pm

domino harvey wrote:Many will not, depends on the TV
Do you know any way to look up a tv model to find out if it would?

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domino harvey
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#406 Post by domino harvey » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:41 pm

Google your TV model and see if the manual is available online (mine was, even though I bought it in 2010), it will tell you what frequencies it can display

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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#407 Post by FlickeringWindow » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:18 pm

Criterion's site lists the total runtime as 902 min while the DVD packaging says 940 min - which is exactly the time difference between 24fps and 25fps.

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Skrmng Skll Th Thd
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#408 Post by Skrmng Skll Th Thd » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:31 pm

movielocke wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:53 pm
Blu-ray is four discs and a list price of ONLY 99.95!

That’s a big improvement over the 7 disc $125 of the DVD edition
The Second Sight set was (still is?) five BDs for about 60 USD, and, well, I doubt the Criterion will be mastered by the likes of David Mackenzie.

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perkizitore
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#409 Post by perkizitore » Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:14 pm


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Finch
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#410 Post by Finch » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:28 am

Strange of Gary to say that both releases have positives and negatives when he doesn't mention any negatives in the Second Sight portion of the comparison. Seems to me he doesn't want to outright say that the Criterion is somewhat inferior to the Second Sight release after Criterion crammed the last part of the film and the extras onto a fourth disc, resulting in artefacts and softer shots.

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andyli
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#411 Post by andyli » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:34 am

According to Gary, Criterion encoded the film in 1080i50. Last time they did Baal in a 1080i60 transfer. They seem pretty experimental with these German TV productions.

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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#412 Post by cdnchris » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:12 am

It's not, I just looked and it's 1080/60p. North American players and televisions cannot handle 50hz content. Gary probably just copy and pasted without double checking.

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swo17
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#413 Post by swo17 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:55 am

So is the 15 hour runtime (as opposed to 15 1/2) also inaccurate?

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andyli
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#414 Post by andyli » Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:35 am

cdnchris wrote:It's not, I just looked and it's 1080/60p. North American players and televisions cannot handle 50hz content. Gary probably just copy and pasted without double checking.
Chris, I suppose you mean 1080/23.976p? Because Blu-ray doesn't support 60p. It's either 60i or 24p.

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EddieLarkin
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#415 Post by EddieLarkin » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:33 am

If it's showing as 1080p60 on the TV then either the player is not set to output 24p OR Gary is correct and it's 60i*. Obviously it cannot be 50i but the runtime can be original if Criterion have added duplicate frames to get up to 30 from 25.

(*though as we've seen plenty of times in the UK, something that is flagged as 50i on a disc doesnt necessarily mean it's interlaced, and the same can be said of anything flagged 60i)

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tenia
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#416 Post by tenia » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:28 am

andyli wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:34 am
According to Gary, Criterion encoded the film in 1080i50. Last time they did Baal in a 1080i60 transfer. They seem pretty experimental with these German TV productions.
It can't be 1080i50 as you wrote. I suppose Gary is used to European 1080i discs and assumed it was 50i here too. Baal was indeed 1080i 29.970.
I don't understand why Gary, who is clearly scanning with some BD Info type softwares all these discs, doesn't simply copy paste the whole info instead (ie like this : MPEG-4 AVC Video / 23984 kbps / 1080i / 25 fps / for instance).
Finch wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:28 am
Strange of Gary to say that both releases have positives and negatives when he doesn't mention any negatives in the Second Sight portion of the comparison. Seems to me he doesn't want to outright say that the Criterion is somewhat inferior to the Second Sight release after Criterion crammed the last part of the film and the extras onto a fourth disc, resulting in artefacts and softer shots.
His conclusion is strange since almost the entirety of its "technical" section for the Criterion is quite negative, especially about the encode, and offers no positive element. It's concluded by "The Criterion is also darker than the Second Sight with marginally less detail and looking softer in some scenes."

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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#417 Post by cdnchris » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:20 am

Sorry, meant 60i. Just pointing out that Gary probably just copy/pasted from elsewhere and forgot to fix it.

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tenia
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#418 Post by tenia » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:18 pm

The UK disc is 25fps (thus 1080i50), that might simply be where the mistaken C+P comes from.

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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#419 Post by David M. » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:42 pm

andyli wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:34 am
According to Gary, Criterion encoded the film in 1080i50. Last time they did Baal in a 1080i60 transfer. They seem pretty experimental with these German TV productions.
The first three words there tell you where the error lies :wink:

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TMDaines
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#420 Post by TMDaines » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:57 am

Second Sight it is for me given that the Fassbinder-related BA extras boil down to (ignoring the extras on both):

• 'Fassbinder: Love Without Demands’ - The acclaimed 2015 feature length documentary by Christian Braad Thomsen (1:47:10)
• An appreciation by writer and critic Tony Rayns (44:26)
• Fassbinder's Phantasmagoria - - A Visual Essay by Daniel Bird (6:10)
• 'The Restoration' documentary including ‘before and after’ (7:28)
• The Original Broadcast Recaps (4:19)
• Berlinale 2007 trailer (6:59)

vs

• Interview from 2007 with Peter Jelavich, author of “Berlin Alexanderplatz”: Radio, Film, and the Death of Weimar Culture (23:54)

You also have to weigh up having fixed subs (removable watching on a PC), losing the Jutzi version, but getting a better transfer.

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andyli
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#421 Post by andyli » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:35 pm

So Criterion's Berlin is indeed 1080i60, following Baal's example. I wonder if this will be their norm from now on for 25fps contents. It seems they figured out a way to maintain the speed by converting every five frames into six. After some googling there are 2:2:3:2:3 pull down and 1:1:1:1:2 pulldown methods at their disposal, or they had some other magic up their sleeve.

I'm interested in seeing if there's any noticeable artifact in motion, but I'll probably just grab the Second Sight edition.

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swo17
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#422 Post by swo17 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:55 pm

Interesting. It sounds like the Second Sight still presents a more "pure" version of the film though, frame for frame, on top of being less compressed.

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tenia
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#423 Post by tenia » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:51 am

It seems it's not too different from keeping the correct runtime on a NTSC 29.97 DVD or a 24fps BD. Technically, both are able to maintain the proper runtimes, but one does it in a direct fashion while the other one uses a trick to achieve that.

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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#424 Post by Glowingwabbit » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:44 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong but DVDBeaver seems to mistakenly imply that Phil Jutzi’s 1931 feature-length film is included on both versions (during the review of the Criterion edition). I'll check my Second Sight copy when I get home, but I don't think it's on there (at least it's not advertised as such).

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tenia
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Re: 411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

#425 Post by tenia » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:06 pm

I think it's Gary's wording which is (as too often) not very readable. He's starting the paragraph by "Criterion have some of the same supplements as the Second Sight." but I don't think he's doing any comparison past that, just listing the Criterion extras. Also, when you look at the extras listings just after the discs specs, it indeed states that the Jutzi feature is on the Criterion set but not the SS one.

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