837 Dekalog

Discuss DVDs and Blu-rays released by Criterion and the films on them. If it's got a spine number, it's in here. Threads may contain spoilers.
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dadaistnun
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:31 am

Re: 837 Dekalog

#101 Post by dadaistnun » Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:33 pm

I paid with PayPal & was refunded/cancelled just today. They'll probably get around to everyone eventually.

I ordered from them once before, years ago, and IIRC it was a similar pricing snafu that they actually did honor. Oddly enough, I think it may have been for the Facets Dekalog set (it was either that or that big Chabrol set - which looked awful at the time and I can't imagine watching now).

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domino harvey
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#102 Post by domino harvey » Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:34 pm

Yep, just got my cancellation email. No big deal, was only planning on getting the Arrow for the extras anyways

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Ribs
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#103 Post by Ribs » Fri Aug 12, 2016 4:56 pm

I don't mean to be the weird paranoid Dekalog aspect ratio guy, but is it at all concerning that the Janus trailer for the restoration is entirely in 1.33:1? Same with the listing on Janus' website.

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MichaelB
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#104 Post by MichaelB » Fri Aug 12, 2016 4:59 pm

I doubt it very much - when cutting a trailer, it's generally a very good idea to have the same aspect ratio throughout.

For instance, when I cut Arrow's Taviani Collection trailer, it made sense for me to reframe everything to 16:9, otherwise it would keep skipping between 1.66:1 and 1.85:1 in a distracting fashion.

jwo17
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#105 Post by jwo17 » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:01 pm

I don't know who cut that resto trailer but I think he/she did Kieslowski proud. It really captures the essence and allure of the films.

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Ribs
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#106 Post by Ribs » Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:42 am

According to the Janus information sheet, the two relevant episodes are being presented in 1.70:1, in case anyone else was still concerned about this.

(And I also see that in the single past instance of multi-AR film, A Master Builder, the website only credited the 2.35:1 despite the packaging correctly listing both of them)

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Ribs
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#107 Post by Ribs » Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:08 pm

Beaver
Criterion's package is divided into 4 Blu-ray discs. The first has Dekalogs 1 thru 5, the second 6-10, the third Blu-ray has A Short Film About Killing and A Short Film About Love - while the fourth Blu-ray has the supplements.

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Finch
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#108 Post by Finch » Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:53 pm

A Short Film About Killing looks very green in the new caps. Hopefully someone with authority on the film can chime in as to whether that's accurate or another botched colour correction job.

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MichaelB
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#109 Post by MichaelB » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:01 pm

I take it you're familiar with this film's rather radical colour scheme? It's always been bilious green, as confirmed by plenty of late-1980s reviews - so this isn't remotely a Thief situation where 1981 comments about the extreme tinting are conspicuous by their absence.

Going from the screencaps, the Facets release looks badly off (possibly someone misguidedly "corrected" it) but the others look as intended.

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swo17
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#110 Post by swo17 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:04 pm

Fingers crossed they release a standalone of the "short films" disc at some point.

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Ribs
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#111 Post by Ribs » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:08 pm

I really dig the menu scheme, where the ten tiles of the cover are divided across to match the disc numbers, 1+2+3+4 being 10.

(It's for this same reason I can't imagine they'll do a standalone of the third disc any time in the foreseeable future)

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Big Ben
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#112 Post by Big Ben » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:12 pm

Still going for Arrow's release myself but I'm excited at seeing those screenshots. They look great.

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Finch
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#113 Post by Finch » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:44 pm

MichaelB wrote:I take it you're familiar with this film's rather radical colour scheme? It's always been bilious green, as confirmed by plenty of late-1980s reviews - so this isn't remotely a Thief situation where 1981 comments about the extreme tinting are conspicuous by their absence.
Been a while since I last watched the AE DVD so I could be misremembering the colours.

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MichaelB
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#114 Post by MichaelB » Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:12 pm

Glancing at the AE DVD, I think your memory isn't deceiving you - but I think that's been mistakenly "corrected" as well.

The crucial point is that these colours are supposed to be sickly and non-naturalistic, and green is very definitely dominant. As Wikipedia helpfully summarises:
Kieślowski credits his cinematographer, Slawomir Idziak, for this deliberate visual unattractiveness within the film, stating: “I sense that the world is becoming more and more ugly. . . . I wanted to dirty this world. . . . We used green filters that give this strange effect, allowing us to mask all that isn’t essential to the image”. When Kieslowski first showed Idziak the screenplay, he commented, saying, “I can’t even read this! It disgusts me,” and then finally conceded, “I’ll shoot it only on the condition that you let me do it green and use all my filters, with which I’ll darken the image.” Kieslowski was not pleased, but he accepted the ultimatum, telling Idziak, “if you want to make green shit, it’s your affair.” The cinematographer concluded, “That’s how the graphic concept came about which Cahiers Du Cinema wrote that it was the most originally shot movie in the Cannes Film Festival.

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Finch
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#115 Post by Finch » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:45 pm

Thanks for clarifying, Mike. I do remember the green and dirty look from the AE DVD but I have to admit to doing a double take when I saw just how "in your face" so to speak the greens were in the new screenshots. Reassuring to hear that it was clearly by design and not somebody fucking around with the filters in DaVinci Resolve.

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djproject
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#116 Post by djproject » Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:27 am

The Blu-ray configuration will also bring up another long-standing issue: compression.

I think in the end, it should be minor and it should distract from my future enjoyment of this.

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Ribs
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#117 Post by Ribs » Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:30 am

I don't really see why they didn't put just one of the Dekalog episodes that were expanded on the Short Films disc and make that disc Disc 2 instead, just to relieve the compression a bit on one of the discs at least (whichever one has the longer runtime, I guess).

kekid
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#118 Post by kekid » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:08 pm

Criterion Dekalog is expected to release by the end of the month, but no reviews yet. Any news as to whether it is on track to release on the announced date? (I am paranoid after the "Tree of Wooden Clogs" news.)

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Ashirg
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#119 Post by Ashirg » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:23 pm

DVD Beaver posted captures. Linked above.

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Mungo
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#120 Post by Mungo » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:58 pm

kekid wrote:Criterion Dekalog is expected to release by the end of the month, but no reviews yet. Any news as to whether it is on track to release on the announced date? (I am paranoid after the "Tree of Wooden Clogs" news.)
DVDBeaver has captures. Film grain looks better than on the TVP blu, and the image has a slightly different aspect ratio (a little taller and a little less wide) that I think looks a little better (the tops of heads are no longer chopped off.) I think the lack of reviews is simply because of the set's length, and I'm sure Gary didn't exactly watch all sixteen or so hours of material on the set.

kekid
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#121 Post by kekid » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:12 am

The restored version of Dekalog is one of the most amazing transformations I have seen. It is a great cinematic experience, presented here in all its staggering beauty. For me, this film is endlessly re-watchable, each time revealing new layers of meanings.I have made it a practice not to watch more than one episode on any given day, so I have seen only one episode so far from the Criterion version. I also watched the Insdorf talk, and found it very interesting. Question: Does Arrow use the same encode as the Criterion?

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Ribs
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#122 Post by Ribs » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:18 am

No, Arrow has only two episodes per disc but with extras spread throughout, which should mean it will probably average about 10mbps higher if not more.

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swo17
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#123 Post by swo17 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:20 am

And the Arrow will be at a more true framerate.

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djproject
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#124 Post by djproject » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:41 am

Got it yesterday and watched the first three (the next four will be later today and the last three will be on Thursday).

Caveat: I have a 32" television and I watch it about a foot or so away from me. Thus, I believe any compression issues are not as apparent to me. I do not deny there could be and it's probably more noticeable during darker scenes. But all that said, the restoration work is absolutely fantastic and this is what I have been waiting for a little over a decade since I last saw it.

For those so inclined, I had written my initial thoughts and impressions back in 2005. These do contain spoilers.

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MichaelB
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Re: 837 Dekalog

#125 Post by MichaelB » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:44 am

The Arrow will be at the correct 25fps (the TV broadcast framerate in Poland in 1988, for which Dekalog was initially exclusively made), although this does mean that importers from outside Europe need to be careful. But if you can play the BFI's Ken Russell, Peter Watkins or Alan Clarke discs (in the case of Russell, I mean The Great Passions and The Great Composers), you'll be able to play this one.

I believe the source masters are the same as the ones used by Criterion, but as Ribs says the Arrow encode should have a substantially higher bitrate. With five parts to a disc, the Criterion episodes cannot be bigger than 10 gigabytes apiece, but the Arrow encodes completed so far are all in the 16-18 gigabytes range, so we're talking at least half as much data again. They'll be in 1080i50 rather than 1080p24, but the "i" is slightly misleading as the image itself will be a fully progressive 25fps one, even though the BD spec technically doesn't permit such a thing. (The BFI used the same workaround with their TV discs.)

The formula is to devote something like two-thirds of each disc to Dekalog itself and use the rest for the extras, which will be (but can get away with being) more heavily compressed. With the exception of disc five, each disc contains two extras - a 1970s TV movie, and a context-setting piece (the doc Still Alive, the archival Kieślowski interview, the pieces by Tony Rayns and myself, all of which are in the 75-95 minute range). Disc five only adds the TV movie Short Working Day because that's in HD and so needs more space to breathe. (The other HD piece, Pedestrian Subway, is only half an hour long, so that issue doesn't arise.)

There was a lot of discussion about how best to present this material, and I think this is probably the most practical way of balancing out everything given that we couldn't stretch to more than five discs.

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