221 Ikiru

[jkj1908]

...and Madadayo because it just went out of print with ak100 and because there are no late period CC Kurosawa blurays yet.

Ran and Kagemusha both have blu-ray releases, albiet, the former from Studio Canal.

of course. to be more clear, by late period I was referring to his final 3 films, which are generally characterized as being a distinct phase because they are so different from Kagemusha and Ran.

[Michael Kerpan]

Ikiru is a surprisingly poorly-preserved Toho film (usually it did a much better than average job than it's competitors). I wonder how this happened?

[Red Screamer]

Watching this film for the first time I was pretty disappointed. Kurosawa gives us his two main messages (bureaucracy is bad, live life fully) within the first two minutes and instead of exploring them further, he just hits the nail right on the head for almost two and a half hours. The structure of the coda and the swing scene were by far the best parts and deserved to be in a better movie. I feel that, in general, Kurosawa is less interesting when he tries to make IMPORTANT films. Without the narration and with a shorter running time I probably would feel more affection for Ikiru, but as it is I see it as a partial failure.

[HerrSchreck]

I blow so hot and cold during this film across multple viewings I can liken it to a furnace door swinging open and closed. The amped up pathos just ratchets up to a degree that it gets silly . . . but there are set pieces like the Night Out, the interoffice gossip, the idea of the futility of human endeavor that all creatures must vault to truly achieve anything, all these naarative peaks that really pack a wallop and are true tour de force.

Sometimes the film feels exceedingly brave, others a silly almost cheap shot at the viewer's sympathies. At points this could be a film by Spielberg. I mean the endless beating up of the misunderstood protagonist by his son and daughter in law just gets a bit much for me at times. . . and yet in the end I am always left with the boundless sense of the nothing-ness of Everything, of the impossibility of touching in real life the boundless hope and energy of our life's dreams and ambitions. It's a bit direct and hypercaffeinated in its attempt, but for such a high volume film it still does manage to leave me with a head full of the extremely subtle poetics of the melancholy facts of life.

But I certainly don't, like Kael, think this is one of the greatest films ever made, nor do I think it even close to one of Shimura's best performances.

[Michael Kerpan]

At points this could be a film by Spielberg. I mean the endless beating up of the misunderstood protagonist by his son and daughter in law just gets a bit much for me at times

Very much agree. It is very manipulative. Almost the polar opposite of something like Tokyo Story, which (if viewed attentively enough) is remarkably "fair" to all the adult characters.

[matrixschmatrix]

It does feel a bit like Kurosawa is trying to work in the Ozu mode, and not succeeding all that well, but I really do love the performances- Shimura's, yes, but perhaps even moreso Miki Odagiri, who pushes what could be a two dimensional life lesson for the protagonist into a full and sensitive person in her own right. I think it also escapes Spielbergianism by keeping the goals small- Shimura never wants to revolutionize the country or fix everything, he just wants to get a worthwhile thing done, and he does it. It gives the movie specificity, even as the portrayal of the bureau seems somewhat caricatured.

[Michael Kerpan]

I actually like Miki Odagiri in some later films, but I find her performance in Ikiru rather weak. To my mind Shimura overacts in this -- not his finest moments (in my opinion).

[Drucker]

While I understand the criticisms being leveled at the film, I actually find Ikiru to be one of my favorite Kurosawas. I think I've read, either here or perhaps in supplemental material to the DVD releases, that early on in his career Kurosawa exhibited a lot more signs of optimism in his works, and a belief in the good nature of people (I'm also thinking about his appreciation for socialism, politically).

It would be very easy for Watanabe to become despondent at any moment and give up on life. His children are unappreciative, and his female companion abandons him. But he remains focused on doing something. I also think something that works well is there is no secret, long suppressed dream of Watanabe: he really did have nothing to live for in a way, and has to FIND something to give his life meaning. It's not only the second half where we get a procedural eye on the building of the park. The path that leads Watanabe there begins when he's still alive (in terms of the story).

Their is certainly some unremarkable performances. And comparing Shimura in this and then to his unbelievable role in Seven Samurai, I definitely prefer the latter. But I still like his performance here. When the gangsters confront him, "accusing" him of making a difference and he gives that incredibly awkward smile, it makes me smile as well. And if the ending is pessimistic after all is said and done, I think it says that one person really can make a difference, but not that they necessarily will without the courage to do so, which is what, in the end, makes Watanabe's character so special.

[HerrSchreck]

It does feel a bit like Kurosawa is trying to work in the Ozu mode, and not succeeding all that well, but I really do love the performances- Shimura's, yes, but perhaps even moreso Miki Odagiri, who pushes what could be a two dimensional life lesson for the protagonist into a full and sensitive person in her own right. I think it also escapes Spielbergianism by keeping the goals small- Shimura never wants to revolutionize the country or fix everything, he just wants to get a worthwhile thing done, and he does it. It gives the movie specificity, even as the portrayal of the bureau seems somewhat caricatured.

Is there someone else here preceding us who said that this resembled an Ozu film? I don't see AK working in Ozu mode here at all.. whereas typically Ozu paints with a light watercolor brush, here AK is dipping a sledgehammer into hi gloss acrylic and slamming it down over and over again. There is none of the trademark subtlety of Ozu in the narrative, and there's not a hint of similarity in the mise en scene, editing schematic, etc. AK had been working in the "contemporary tales of everyday people" since the beginning, so it's not even like there's a distinct similarity there.

[matrixschmatrix]

Michael Kerpan compared it to Tokyo Story, and story-wise this does feel like Ozu, or something Ozu-esque to me- although Kurosawa did plenty of modern dress work, this is among other things an intimate family and community drama, which I don't recall him doing outside of this before maybe I Live in Fear.

[Michael Kerpan]

If Kurosawa was trying to do a story in the mode of Ozu or Naruse or Shimizu or Gosho or Shimazu (etc), he didn't do a very good job here -- or in One Wonderful Sunday (after its rather nice early scenes). Nothing in any Kurosawa film I've seen has shown any sign that he had much in common with "common people" (lower middle class and working class and, a fortiori "the poor"), he seems (to me) much more in sync with those in higher socio-economic strata. The protagonist in Ikiru is on the boundary-line, maybe upper loweer-middle class?

[Drucker]

Nothing in any Kurosawa film I've seen has shown any sign that he had much in common with "common people" (lower middle class and working class and, a fortiori "the poor"),

Surely you have a point, as his samurai are of a higher class and even in Urban Films like High and Low and Ikiru and Scandal, we have people who are doing pretty well for themselves. But don't forget about Stray Dog! Surely there are few worse feelings for low-level employees than the fuck up Mifune goes through in that film!

[Michael Kerpan]

I think Stray Dog is a special case -- Mifune's character is lower-class at the moment of the film, but he is a policeman -- and the focus is not on his socio-economic status but his role as a detective. We have no real sense of where this character came from, only that at the end of the war he was a veteran with not much in the way of money or possessions (if he mentions his pre-soldier background, I don't recall it).

[HerrSchreck]

Michael Kerpan compared it to Tokyo Story, and story-wise this does feel like Ozu, or something Ozu-esque to me- although Kurosawa did plenty of modern dress work, this is among other things an intimate family and community drama, which I don't recall him doing outside of this before maybe I Live in Fear.

Michael claimed it was the polar opposite of something like Tokyo Story, a statement I wholeheartedly agree with. If working within a contemporary milieu warrants such specific comparison, virtually any modern day tale is Ozu-esque (which is, of course, counterproductive when attempting to identify what makes an Ozu film the specific, distinctive product of its director).

If one looks at AK's filmmography running up to IKIRU we see a huge percentage of contemporary dramas rendering family relations, bureaucratic frustration, and the problem with the lowest common denominator in society, all of which are blended to heavy effect in IKIRU. What sets the latter apart, IMHO, is the hi level of manipulation and extreme blaring emotional volume . . . nothing like the carefully calibrated nuance and subtle poetry of Ozu (let alone the supreme less-is-more mastery of Tokyo Story)

1951 The Idiot
1950 Scandal
1949 Stray Dog
1949 The Silent Duel
1948 Drunken Angel
1947 One Wonderful Sunday
1946 No Regrets for Our Youth
1946 Those Who Make Tomorrow

[Mr Sausage]

I think Stray Dog is a special case -- Mifune's character is lower-class at the moment of the film, but he is a policeman -- and the focus is not on his socio-economic status but his role as a detective. We have no real sense of where this character came from, only that at the end of the war he was a veteran with not much in the way of money or possessions (if he mentions his pre-soldier background, I don't recall it).

Mifune's character had his bag stolen when he returned from the war, like the murderer in the film, so we're meant to understand he narrowly escaped the poverty and desperation of the killer.

[jindianajonz]

I'd also throw The Most Beautiful onto that list, propagandistic as it is.

I had never heard of Those Who Make Tomorrow before; is it available anywhere? I've been (slowly) going through Kurosawa's filmography while reading Donald Richies book, but I don't recall a chapter on this film. Any idea why it was neglected?

[Michael Kerpan]

Mifune's character had his bag stolen when he returned from the war, like the murderer in the film, so we're meant to understand he narrowly escaped the poverty and desperation of the killer.

Yes. What I was _trying_ to say that we don't kniow anything about the character's pre-war life. Was he from a farming family, the son of a provincial politician (or a small business owner), did he got to school past middle school -- we don't know anything of his life BEFORE his bag was stolen -- or have I forgotten something?

[matrixschmatrix]

Michael Kerpan compared it to Tokyo Story, and story-wise this does feel like Ozu, or something Ozu-esque to me- although Kurosawa did plenty of modern dress work, this is among other things an intimate family and community drama, which I don't recall him doing outside of this before maybe I Live in Fear.

Michael claimed it was the polar opposite of something like Tokyo Story, a statement I wholeheartedly agree with. If working within a contemporary milieu warrants such specific comparison, virtually any modern day tale is Ozu-esque (which is, of course, counterproductive when attempting to identify what makes an Ozu film the specific, distinctive product of its director).

If one looks at AK's filmmography running up to IKIRU we see a huge percentage of contemporary dramas rendering family relations, bureaucratic frustration, and the problem with the lowest common denominator in society, all of which are blended to heavy effect in IKIRU. What sets the latter apart, IMHO, is the hi level of manipulation and extreme blaring emotional volume . . . nothing like the carefully calibrated nuance and subtle poetry of Ozu (let alone the supreme less-is-more mastery of Tokyo Story)

1951 The Idiot
1950 Scandal
1949 Stray Dog
1949 The Silent Duel
1948 Drunken Angel
1947 One Wonderful Sunday
1946 No Regrets for Our Youth
1946 Those Who Make Tomorrow

I'm not really clear on why I'm getting challenged on this- I was agreeing with Michael that, despite some story similarities that leads me to feel as though this is as close to Ozu as Kurosawa got, Ikiru is fundamentally a failure if one is assuming it's trying to work as an Ozu film. Kurosawa relatively rarely deals with family at all- though I haven't seen No Regrets for Our Youth, and reading up on it, it would qualify- and most of his contemporary movies that I have seen marry his more forceful style with more melodramatic content, cops and robbers and wars and plagues and so forth, while Ikiru is (as I said) fairly constrained in scope. Which is not to say it's a subtle movie, by any means.

[Mr Sausage]

Mifune's character had his bag stolen when he returned from the war, like the murderer in the film, so we're meant to understand he narrowly escaped the poverty and desperation of the killer.

Yes. What I was _trying_ to say that we don't kniow anything about the character's pre-war life. Was he from a farming family, the son of a provincial politician (or a small business owner), did he got to school past middle school -- we don't know anything of his life BEFORE his bag was stolen -- or have I forgotten something?

No, that sounds about right. Was just pointing out that the movie us concerned with how certain, similar people deal with sudden poverty. It's plain that general socio-economic status isn't the focus.

[Michael Kerpan]

Even as sociological considerations go, there is something reductive in _ignoring_ the early history of both the protagonist and antagonist in Stray Dog. Kurosawa makes it all pretty simplistic -- one makes the right choice, the other the wrong one. But we don't know whether Mifune's character's early background pre-disposed him towards HIS choice, while his opponent's did not.

[HerrSchreck]

Michael Kerpan compared it to Tokyo Story, and story-wise this does feel like Ozu, or something Ozu-esque to me- although Kurosawa did plenty of modern dress work, this is among other things an intimate family and community drama, which I don't recall him doing outside of this before maybe I Live in Fear.

Michael claimed it was the polar opposite of something like Tokyo Story, a statement I wholeheartedly agree with. If working within a contemporary milieu warrants such specific comparison, virtually any modern day tale is Ozu-esque (which is, of course, counterproductive when attempting to identify what makes an Ozu film the specific, distinctive product of its director).

If one looks at AK's filmmography running up to IKIRU we see a huge percentage of contemporary dramas rendering family relations, bureaucratic frustration, and the problem with the lowest common denominator in society, all of which are blended to heavy effect in IKIRU. What sets the latter apart, IMHO, is the hi level of manipulation and extreme blaring emotional volume . . . nothing like the carefully calibrated nuance and subtle poetry of Ozu (let alone the supreme less-is-more mastery of Tokyo Story)

1951 The Idiot
1950 Scandal
1949 Stray Dog
1949 The Silent Duel
1948 Drunken Angel
1947 One Wonderful Sunday
1946 No Regrets for Our Youth
1946 Those Who Make Tomorrow

I'm not really clear on why I'm getting challenged on this- I was agreeing with Michael that, despite some story similarities that leads me to feel as though this is as close to Ozu as Kurosawa got, Ikiru is fundamentally a failure if one is assuming it's trying to work as an Ozu film. Kurosawa relatively rarely deals with family at all- though I haven't seen No Regrets for Our Youth, and reading up on it, it would qualify- and most of his contemporary movies that I have seen marry his more forceful style with more melodramatic content, cops and robbers and wars and plagues and so forth, while Ikiru is (as I said) fairly constrained in scope. Which is not to say it's a subtle movie, by any means.

Not because of any hostility, (if that's what you're feeling it's not intended) but because it's a discussion board where people agree and disagree and force folks to defend their ideas. I just don't see any similarity to Ozu whatsoever. I think AK aligned himself diametrically opposite of Ozu . . . matter of fact Ikiru came out right at the same time of Ozu's domestic drama The Flavor of Green Tea Over Rice . . . and AK famously said (paraphrasing) "The cinema needs stronger flavors than green tea over rice.." (of course this mentioned viz the soon to follow The Seven Samurai)

And he certainly, to my eyes, did intend to deliver something far more forceful, far louder and far more manipulative than standard quietude of Ozu fare.

Which ultimately is a good thing-- it broadens the menu and provides us with cinema-specimens for all seasons of the mind.

[matrixschmatrix]

Oh, fair enough, I think I was just perceiving your tone incorrectly- I think we're actually broadly on the same page in terms of what Ikiru is and how it functions, at any rate.

[Mr Sausage]

Even as sociological considerations go, there is something reductive in _ignoring_ the early history of both the protagonist and antagonist in Stray Dog. Kurosawa makes it all pretty simplistic -- one makes the right choice, the other the wrong one. But we don't know whether Mifune's character's early background pre-disposed him towards HIS choice, while his opponent's did not.

I think that would only be true if the film were meant as a wide social critique. But the social conscience of the film is focused specifically on the social effect of the war. In which case, I think isolating the characters' choices from pre-war conditions makes sense, since if their pre-war lives determined their choices, the specific conditions of the war become less central and more incidental.

Kurosawa is also side-stepping sociological determinism. His moral dramas usually focus heavily on the effect of individual choice. In this case, attributing the various crimes or misdeeds to a particular social disposition takes away from that. It would also take away from the central slippage of the movie: that there is very little distinguishing the hero and the villain besides a single, perhaps arbitrary choice. Neither was determined from the start to be good or evil; they just happened to end up on different sides of a key choice that either of them could've made differently. This, anyway, is the issue that plagues Mifune's character, that he's only a cop and not a killer because of a key choice about some banal situation rather than an inherent goodness in his character. It's clear Kurosawa puts some stock in it, too, since he has the protagonist and antagonist become indistinguishable as they wrestle in the mud. The moral slippage works best without sociological determinism confusing things.

Besides, there isn't anything more complex about saying "he's bad because his home life sucked" than "he's bad because he made poor moral choices."

[Michael Kerpan]

Well, I pretty much love Stray Dog -- unlike Ikiru -- so I don't really want to nitpick at it all that much. I think it certainly gets a lot of thing right that Ikiru gets wrong, at least as a matter of film making. ;~}

[itchyrodent32]

Yes, this film is very simple, most of Kurosawa's films are. That's what makes them so good (at least in my opinion)! Kurosawa doesn't theorize or look at the world from a thousand different "philosophical" angles. He deals with the basic truths of human existence. I feel that in "Ikiru" he is saying that if you do something, even the tiniest little thing, to make someone else's life better, you've lived a good, worthwhile life. It doesn't matter that the bureaucrats didn't learn from Watanabe, he broke from their system and did something worthwhile, in his own way, he won. Charlie Chaplin once wrote (I'm paraphrasing) "Complexity isn't truth. We get so damned clever that we miss the simple truth right in front of our eyes" I think Kurosawa felt this way too. He spent his entire career showing us the simple truth right in front of our eyes, that we're so often to busy being "clever" to see.