63 Carnival of Souls

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AnamorphicWidescreen
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#26 Post by AnamorphicWidescreen » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:57 pm

Recently re-watched Carnival of Souls for the first time in years. Great film, as I mentioned earlier. When it comes to b&w horror films that exude creepy atmosphere, this one goes towards the top of my list. The melancholy organ music added a lot to this atmosphere as well.
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Obviously Mary Henry (the main character) drowned in the beginning, and the person we saw walk out of the lake three hours later was her ghost. What threw me off when first watching this was that she, as a ghost, was still able to drive, interact/talk with others, etc. As the movie progressed, we did notice that less & less people were able to see her at all. I'm guessing she was supposed to be in some sort of purgatory, and then as she started seeing more of the dead people, she became more detached/distant (literally & figuratively) from the living.
SpoilerShow
The conversation she had in the doctor's office was interesting, in that it implied that she had been distant with people when she was alive; so it's almost as if she was in a self-imposed isolation anyway, prior to her drowning at the lake. We just saw a continuation of this when her ghost was being distant with people as well. The conversation(s) she had with the ministers at the church seemed to confirm this, i.e. when she said that her job as a church organist was just a job, and that she felt no emotion in regards to it (or presumably anything else for that matter).
Just my .02.....

Jobla
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#27 Post by Jobla » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:23 pm

I would love to have Criterion upgrade this title to Blu-ray.

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sorrysomehow
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#28 Post by sorrysomehow » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:37 pm

The first time I saw this film was when I purchased it in one of those 15 classic horror films for $5 DVDs (all of which are films in the public domain) that I bought literally just for Night of the Living Dead, another film I would LOVE to see receive the Criterion treatment, and I was pleasantly surprised at how wonderful this movie was. I watched it with my younger brother and I recall him being truly frightened by it. I would be ecstatic to see a blu ray upgrade of this film, as I'm personally in the camp that believes Criterion needs to release more horror films. I think it's one of the more neglected genres in the collection, especially those from more recent decades.

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swo17
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#29 Post by swo17 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:43 pm


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Ashirg
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#30 Post by Ashirg » Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:45 pm

I wonder if blu-ray release still includes 2 versions - they don't mention in the extras.

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colinr0380
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#31 Post by colinr0380 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:26 pm

On recently going through the various Orbital albums and being impressed by the various cult film dialogue snippets sampled ("Out There Somewhere? Part One" from the In Sides album uses THX-1138 ("What's wrong?") and "I Don't Know You People" from The Middle of Nowhere album quotes liberally, and takes its title, from a line of dialogue spoken in Inseminoid!), it was fun to also find out that about two thirds of the way through Spare Parts Express (also on The Middle of Nowhere album), that the track seques from riffing on the old 70s John Craven's Newsround cue into something darker and more techno-gothic via a signature quote from Carnival of Souls: "Why can't anybody hear meeeee!"

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EddieLarkin
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#32 Post by EddieLarkin » Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:13 pm

Ashirg wrote:I wonder if blu-ray release still includes 2 versions - they don't mention in the extras.
The listed runtime is for the theatrical version, and the extras list "Deleted Scenes" (something that didn't feature on the DVD), so it doesn't look like it. Perhaps they could find no suitable film elements for the director's cut scenes and decided against splicing in decades old SD footage.

Orlac
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#33 Post by Orlac » Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:43 am

One thing that bugged me on the old Criterion was the wacking 1987 copyright notice on the end title card. Almost as annoying as ITV getting a copyright notice on that magistical closing shot on THINGS TO COME!

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Le Samouraï
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#34 Post by Le Samouraï » Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:58 am

EddieLarkin wrote:
Ashirg wrote:I wonder if blu-ray release still includes 2 versions - they don't mention in the extras.
The listed runtime is for the theatrical version, and the extras list "Deleted Scenes" (something that didn't feature on the DVD), so it doesn't look like it. Perhaps they could find no suitable film elements for the director's cut scenes and decided against splicing in decades old SD footage.
From what I can gather from various sources it appears the 1989 theatrical re-release was the director's cut, so it should be possible to at least find a theatrical print (or course that would still cause a jump in PQ, just not as much).

Personally, I prefer the DC, and I will be a sad old git if they really don't include it.

As a wrote elsewhere, at the moment I hope it's just one of those small errors Criterion sometimes make in the heat of putting the news up on page in time. But you have a good (and sad) point about the inclusion of the deleted scenes. You are probably right.

I need a hug. Like now. :cry:

Orlac
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#35 Post by Orlac » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:07 am

The Legend dvd used the Director's Cut and that looked fairly film-like as opposed to an old video master. Plus the Mike Nelson commentary cracked me up!

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hearthesilence
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#36 Post by hearthesilence » Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:05 am

This past fall, MoMA's To Save and Project festival premiered a restoration of the original theatrical cut (which used the OCN) - I presume that's what being used on Criterion's Blu-Ray.

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dwk
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#37 Post by dwk » Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:12 pm

Someone at the Home Theater Forum posted a response from Criterion and the Blu-ray will only have the theatrical cut. So hang onto the old DVD if you want a copy of the director's cut.

riczald
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#38 Post by riczald » Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:14 pm

The director's cut WILL NOT be included on the upcoming blu-ray edition.

I just got a confirmation by Jon Mulvaney.


"Hello there,

The Criterion Collection’s newest Blu-ray/DVD release of CARNIVAL OF
SOULS is the theatrical cut of the film, and the longest scenes from
the director’s cut will be presented on the release as deleted scenes.
The camera negative we used for our 4K transfer and 2K restoration is
the theatrical cut, and the other cut only exists in an analog
one-inch videotape.

Here is the intro text that will be presented on the disc explaining this:

A few brief scenes, along with a handful of individual shots, were
trimmed from Carnival of Souls before its theatrical and drive-in
release in 1962. The distributor, Herts-Lion International, made the
cuts so that the film’s run time would be short enough for it to play
on a double bill with The Devil’s Messenger. In 1989, director Herk
Harvey edited the material back in to create a new cut of the film for
home video release. As the best existing source for that material is
an analog one-inch videotape, we have not included it in the restored
2K master of the film presented in this release. The longest three of
the cut scenes are presented here, with head and tail from the new
restoration.

I hope this information is helpful! Please feel free to write again if
you have additional questions.


Jon Mulvaney"

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Le Samouraï
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#39 Post by Le Samouraï » Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:15 pm

Got the same reply straight from the horse's mouth:
The Criterion Collection’s newest Blu-ray/DVD release of CARNIVAL OF
SOULS is the theatrical cut of the film, and the longest scenes from
the director’s cut will be presented on the release as deleted scenes.
The camera negative we used for our 4K transfer and 2K restoration is
the theatrical cut, and the other cut only exists in an analog
one-inch videotape
.

Here is the intro text that will be presented on the disc explaining this:

A few brief scenes, along with a handful of individual shots, were
trimmed from Carnival of Souls before its theatrical and drive-in
release in 1962. The distributor, Herts-Lion International, made the
cuts so that the film’s run time would be short enough for it to play
on a double bill with The Devil’s Messenger. In 1989, director Herk
Harvey edited the material back in to create a new cut of the film for
home video release
. As the best existing source for that material is
an analog one-inch videotape, we have not included it in the restored
2K master of the film presented in this release. The longest three of
the cut scenes are presented here, with head and tail from the new
restoration.
Well, there we have it. Unfortunately the (in my mind much better) director's cut is in the bin.

I am not quite sure what to make of their reply, though. It is a definite fact that Carnival of Souls had a limited theatrical re-release in 1989.

Here's a couple of old reviews/ articles:

NY Times
LA Times

My google-fu is weak and my old film magazines in storage, so I cannot find any hard confirmation of the runtime of that re-release.

This article from Offscreen claims that "the re-release of Carnival of Souls [...] contained several minutes of extra footage". I cannot, however, access the source, The Weekend Australian.

IMDB and Wikipedia say the same, but their claims are unsourced.

Wiki also claims that uncut 16mm prints where shipped to TV stations:
The 35 mm theatrical prints were cut by Herz-Lion to 78 minutes which trimmed the camera original. However, the 16 mm television copies were printed complete and individually cut by each station to fit their time slot, which is why they vary in length. WOR in New York City used to broadcast the film intact in a late night timeslot in the sixties. The scenes cut by the theatrical distributor include a scene where Mary stops at a gas station and discusses the carnival building with the attendant, a longer dialogue sequence between the minister and carpenter and an extra scene where the doctor talks to the landlady. All of them were put back into the camera negative in 1989.
Criterion did not respond to my question about the length of the 1989 re-release, but only notes that the best existing source of the extra scenes are an old analogue one-inch videotape. It follows that whatever theatrical print was used back in 1989 no longer exists. This could certainly be the case, as it appears it only played few venues outside filmfestivals. Panorama Entertainment probably only had a couple or maybe even a single print made.

The question remains whether any of those 16mm prints survive?

If you check the title in WorldCat, you can find entries of what appears to be complete 16mm prints, like this one, which is described as "2 film reels (84 min.)". Whether that means the print actually still exists and is accessible somewhere, some more knowledgeable member can hopefully tell.

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Feego
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#40 Post by Feego » Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:41 pm

That's really odd considering Criterion's long-standing policy of staying true to the director's visions on their releases. Even if the materials are not strong, I would still think it should be included as a bonus feature, especially since Herk Harvey himself edited the longer scenes back in. For my part, I do prefer the theatrical cut over the director's, if only because the movie could use a little tightening in some places. The second scene in the doctor's office is a good example. By shaving off the first couple of minutes, the payoff comes as more of a surprise. But the longer cut should be included for posterity.

Orlac
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#41 Post by Orlac » Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:29 pm

I read somehwere that the premiere version in Lawrence back in '62 was the director's cut, before Herts Lion picked it up.

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Le Samouraï
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#42 Post by Le Samouraï » Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:16 pm

Re: my link to Worldcat

I am a bit tired from a very long day overhere, so I did not look too closely at WorldCat at first, but it appears the complete 84 min. version on two 16mm reels, which I linked to above, exist at The National Film and Sound Archive in Canberra, Australia.

Edit: I shot another email off to Criterion to let them know, just in case they don't.

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FrauBlucher
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#43 Post by FrauBlucher » Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:46 am


Werewolf by Night

Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#44 Post by Werewolf by Night » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:30 am

I didn't expect this kind of improvement in the clarity of the picture. Just look at that screen cap of the street scene; you can read signs far in the distance (not to mention the huge amount of additional information available in the frame).

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FrauBlucher
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#45 Post by FrauBlucher » Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:11 pm


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djproject
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#46 Post by djproject » Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:01 pm

The "Regards from Nowhere" video essay was probably the most interesting/creative video essay I have seen, either from Criterion or elsewhere. It definitely entertained me greatly in parts.

I believe this also marks the first time this contemporary bad movie gem was mentioned in relation to a Criterion released title.

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swo17
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#47 Post by swo17 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:58 pm

Chris Galloway wrote:The supplements here are all very good by unfortunately, as I’ve mentioned many times already, a lot of other material is missing. Along with the director’s cut and the two Centron films all of the text notes and galleries—particularly the extensive history on Saltair, which featured a huge number of photos, advertisements, and post cards—are all gone as well. Another big absence is another collection of text features, reprints of interviews with Harvey, Clifford, and Hilligoss. The Harvey interview covered a lot of the same material elsewhere, but Clifford goes into more detail about his career, and Hilligoss’ contribution proved most invaluable as she gives an alternate perspective to the production and the difficulties she had acting in it. She also talks about how it affected her career (or didn’t). These interviews also had a large number of photos and poster art scattered about as you navigated through.
This is a helpful summary of the supplements dropped for this re-issue. Is this the most material that's been lost as part of a so-called upgrade?

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domino harvey
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#48 Post by domino harvey » Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:03 pm

Tin Drum's at least close, since it too lost an entire version of the feature and the commentary

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knives
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Re: 63 Carnival of Souls

#49 Post by knives » Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:05 pm

It also lost that stupid doc.

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Charles
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:06 pm

63 Carnival of Souls

#50 Post by Charles » Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:59 pm

Yep, got the BD today and just went through both to find I'm keeping the DVD set, as with Tin Drum.

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