705 Breaking the Waves

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bainbridgezu
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:54 pm

Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#51 Post by bainbridgezu » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:37 pm

Welcome to the board, Laitings. Were you involved in this restoration, or just very knowledgeable? Either way, the information you've provided in quite interesting in understanding how the film was made to look so good.

I wonder what kind of technique is being used to restore The Kingdom, and when -- and how -- we'll be able to see the results?

Zot!
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#52 Post by Zot! » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:28 pm

The video three posts back shows the restoration of Riget.

Laitings
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#53 Post by Laitings » Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:39 am

DignanSWE wrote:Here's an interesting video about the restoration process used at Zentropa. The color correction of Breaking the Waves is covered in the second half of the video. (The first part of the video reveals that Riget is being restored in 4K!)
Thanks for spreading the video! :-)

Unfortunately we are only restoring Riget in 3K. It was originally shot on 16mm celluloid, and the maximum resolution you can get from a 16mm neg is 3K. But I must tell you Riget in particular is going to look amazing! :-)

Laitings
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#54 Post by Laitings » Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:03 am

bainbridgezu wrote:Welcome to the board, Laitings. Were you involved in this restoration, or just very knowledgeable? Either way, the information you've provided in quite interesting in understanding how the film was made to look so good.

I wonder what kind of technique is being used to restore The Kingdom, and when -- and how -- we'll be able to see the results?

Thanks a lot!

I supervise the restoration process. Actually I'm the guy explaining in the video a few posts back. :-)

Regarding The Kingdom, the way it's restored is the same way as Breaking The Waves, except The Kingdom is only restored in 3K. This is the maximum resolution you can get out of a 16mm neg. It's really hard to say when it will come out, as it is almost 10 hours long in all. And there are a lot visual effects that has to be done again. We are not many people in the department and it's the same people who also do the new films.

But after Breaking The Waves was recieved so well, we decided to speed up the process. But still my guess is it will be at least a year, maybe a year and a half from now. But if you love the Kingdom, as I do, it is seriously worth the wait. :-)

AnamorphicWidescreen
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#55 Post by AnamorphicWidescreen » Mon Jan 12, 2015 1:59 pm

I saw Breaking the Waves for the first time last year, on the Criterion Blu. I had avoided the film in the past due to the fact that it sounded depressing (which it obviously was), but felt it was finally time to watch this.

And, I was truly bowled over. What a heart-wrenching & also truly beautiful movie.

There were a lot of things going on in the film:

Liked the late '60's/'70's period rock music that opened up each "segment"; that was one of my favorite eras for music, and really worked well here.

I felt the film
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was definitely a condemnation of certain religions that reject the people that need it the most. While Bess was very pious & religious before & during much of her marriage, the church accepted her with open arms, and she had also obviously done a lot to help the church. However, when Bess "strayed off the path" with the best of intentions (because she thought it was helping her husband) the church turned it's back on her.
I don't know
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much about mental illness, but I don't think that Bess was necessarily mentally ill; as Dr. Richardson told her at one point, he didn't believe in prescribing her medication to deal with her grief. I think this type of thing is even more true today; IMHO, a lot of doctors will prescribe medication to people who don't need it (but I digress).
Re: Bess'
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actions (that led to her death), she was obviously doing this because she really believed that it would save her husband's life.
I was moved by the speech
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that Bess' friend (the nurse) gave at her wedding, and also how much she obviously cared for Bess - even after Bess got upset with her. It showed how strong that friendship was...

The
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miracle that Bess prayed for (i.e., her husband recovering & able to walk again) did miraculously happen, but was it at the cost of Bess' own life?! The implication was that Bess' dying was what caused her husband to recover, but I guess that's just one interpretation...
The very ending scene
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with the disembodied bells ringing in the sky was very beautiful & sad, and was definitely one of the best endings I've ever seen in cinema.
- The only funny scene was at the wedding reception in the beginning, when Yon's buddy was competing with Bess' grandfather & drank a beer, then crushed the aluminum can with his hand (big deal). The grandfather, refusing to be one-upped, drank a glass of beer & then slowly crushed the glass with his hand, stoically cutting his hand & showing it off to Yon's buddy, who was incredulous - hilarious!

The shaky camera was obviously intentional, and gave the film a documentary-style vibe. The fact that the PQ & color weren't too great (even on Blu) also seemed to be intentional...Note that I've never seen the film on any previous releases, but I'm fairly confident that this Criterion Blu version is superior to all of them.

Also:

-I was a HUGE fan of the UK film Trainspotting, and saw it three times in the theater back in 1996 (the same year BTW was released). One of the legal authority figures at the end of the film w/the white wig (don't know what they're called in Scotland) appeared to be played by the same actor that played the same type of role in Trainspotting...

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bainbridgezu
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#56 Post by bainbridgezu » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:09 pm

Laitings wrote:But after Breaking The Waves was recieved so well, we decided to speed up the process. But still my guess is it will be at least a year, maybe a year and a half from now. But if you love the Kingdom, as I do, it is seriously worth the wait. :-)
Great news, thanks so much for the update. Any word on an American distributor? The Kingdom is something I've always hoped Criterion might release.

Zot!
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#57 Post by Zot! » Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:35 pm

Laitings wrote: I supervise the restoration process. Actually I'm the guy explaining in the video a few posts back. :-)
Thanks for cool video Laitings, I'm waiting patiently for The Kingdom. I actually saw the entirity of the first and second season when they toured them on blown up 35mm in the US ages ago. Udo's arrival made a big impression. If you don't mind, I've got a question concerning your wacky practices at Zentropa. Being as you produce a great deal of your stuff at 25fps, is there a preferred speed by Von Trier, or does he not even care? I know people have noticed in Melancholia that some of the music is pitched differently due to the increased running time. I'm just surprised that so much time and effort is spent on these films effects and sound design, only to ultimately conform to antiquated broadcast standards for distribution and home video. Keep up the great work otherwise!

Laitings
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#58 Post by Laitings » Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:11 am

Zot! wrote:Thanks for cool video Laitings,
Glad you enjoyed it!

I'm glad you've noticed Zentropa is a wacky place because it definetly is! :-) And that's part of the charm of this place I feel.

Oohh the good old 24fps vs 25fps discussion. :-) Lars doesn't really care if it's shot 24fps or 25fps. His concerns are in different areas, I guess. Funny thing is though, sometimes he's preoccupied with the technical side and sometimes he's not. But basically it's like this. Zentropa has a history of very early on, producing our films on video and then shooting out to celluloid. We did this since The Idiots. This was of course because of the cost benefits of producing on video vs celluloid. We could never come close to competing with American budgets. Being that the European electrical grid is 50Hz it made best sense for us to produce in 25fps back in the day. This was the standard of all our post production equipment and the videocameras. Also this was the frame rate on television in most countries in Europe, and still is. Back then it didn't matter with the theatre version, because the 35mm projectors could be set to almost any speed and we could therefore run them at 25fps too. Then along comes digital cinema projection which by nature is 24fps. That meant we got caught kind of in the middle where we were unsure if we should produce for cinema or television. For a period we kept producing at 25fps. In Lars Von Trier films that meant Antichrist and Melancholia.

In the end we came to the conclusion that our main markets are cinema, Blu-Ray and VOD so now we produce all our films in 24fps. Unfortunately we now have to do the reverse conversion for our televion masters. But I guess you can't win them all! And I promise you the sound guys are pulling out their hair in disstress! :-) Maybe in time European television stations will start showing 24fps.

The problems are not all over though, since we now started restoring our old film, of which many are originally produced in 25fps. So if you will ever see the restored Blu-Ray version of The Kingdom, this will also have 25->24 conversion. Sorry about that! :-)

Hope it answers your question.


@bainbridgezu - No I unfortanetly don't know anything about who will be the American distributor. I have very little insight in our sales department. -But Criterion could be a good guess.

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martin
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#59 Post by martin » Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:26 am

Re. the 24/25 fps issues: Some of the Dancer in the Dark DVDs (at least the Scandinavian ones, perhaps others) have a commentary track in Danish with sound designer Per Streit and Lars von Trier talking briefly about audio and the 24/25 fps issues. It's been more than a decade since I listened to this track but Lars von Trier wasn't too concerned if I remember correctly. I think he said he didn't understand such stuff at all (although we can never take such statements for granted. Maybe he's exaggerating his lack of technical knowledge in a self ironic way).

And thanks for your posts Laitings!

Zot!
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#60 Post by Zot! » Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:40 pm

Laitings wrote:The problems are not all over though, since we now started restoring our old film, of which many are originally produced in 25fps. So if you will ever see the restored Blu-Ray version of The Kingdom, this will also have 25->24 conversion. Sorry about that! :-)
Thanks for the great answer Laitings, I think that really covers it all. I hate to be such a terrible nerd, but for some reason these things interest me. Did the 25p productions start with Idiots, or was Breaking the Waves also shot (on 35mm) at 25p to allow for the original video intermediate? And you've now completely abandoned 25p, even for DK blu-Rays of things like your Riget restoration? I know antichrist an melancholia did exist as such. I can't go without adding my praise for the Breaking the Waves restoration, it really does retain the spirit of he film, while lifting the veil on the crude video technique originally used. Bravo! Saw this one on it's original theatrical release as well, And it really took me back. Thanks!

Zot!
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#61 Post by Zot! » Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:46 pm

martin wrote:Re. the 24/25 fps issues: Some of the Dancer in the Dark DVDs (at least the Scandinavian ones, perhaps others) I think he said he didn't understand such stuff at all (although we can never take such statements for granted. Maybe he's exaggerating his lack of technical knowledge in a self ironic way).
I think this is what surprises me, as he spent the first half of his career making extremely meticulous technical cinema. I assume it was part of his effort to lose as much artiface as possible. Or he's just a contrarian prick :wink:

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Kirkinson
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#62 Post by Kirkinson » Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:22 pm

An opera based on Breaking the Waves by Missy Mazzoli opened this weekend in Philadelphia. Here's the trailer (which sounds wonderful to me).

Peter-H
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#63 Post by Peter-H » Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:27 pm

You know what my only problem with this movie is? That the final scene with the bells is only like 30 seconds long. I feel like after 2 hours and 40 minutes of relentless misery and suffering, we should have a little bit longer to savor the redemption; it feels kind of rushed. Otherwise I think this movie is a masterpiece. Does anyone else feel the same way? I mean even if that scene was like ten seconds longer it would've been fine; it just feels like the movie ends abruptly after something so big is introduced.

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DignanSWE
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#64 Post by DignanSWE » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:17 pm

Laitings wrote:Regarding The Kingdom [...] my guess is it will be at least a year, maybe a year and a half from now. But if you love the Kingdom, as I do, it is seriously worth the wait. :-)
Turned out to be three years, but here we finally have an excerpt from the remaster. (The original aspect ratio for the theatrical release of part 1 is 1.85:1, part 2 1.66:1.)

(Sorry for posting this in the wrong thread...)

Peter-H
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#65 Post by Peter-H » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:01 pm

Does anyone else think that God is portrayed as vindictive and cruel in this movie? For example most of the time it seems like God is almost annoyed that Bess is asking for help. Given the movie's portrayal of God I sometimes wonder if the end is supposed to be ironic. Is Von Trier making fun of the idea of a women debasing herself for a man and receiving her reward in heaven? I certainly hope not because that would mean this is an extremely sadistic and mean spirited movie. But then again I wouldn't put it past Von Trier to be mean spirited and sadistic.

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Big Ben
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#66 Post by Big Ben » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:28 pm

Peter-H wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:01 pm
Does anyone else think that God is portrayed as vindictive and cruel in this movie? For example most of the time it seems like God is almost annoyed that Bess is asking for help even during extremely dire situations. Given the movie's portrayal of God I sometimes wonder if the end is supposed to be some sadistic piece of irony.
It is. I can't remember the specific quote but von Trier very much intended the ending to be a sadistic piece of irony. I always felt the bells in particular are meant to drive that home. I'm usually on board for von Trier's shtick but I didn't buy it when I saw the film about ten years ago. The film is incredibly well acted but even my freewheeling low bar taste in everything couldn't stomach that ending particularly when I'm well aware of von Trier's lack of sincerity in a lot of things.

Peter-H
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#67 Post by Peter-H » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:33 pm

If it's true that he made a movie this human and beautiful and turned it into some sadistic trick then that makes me think he's kind of a bad person. Although this interview seems to suggests he's sincere so I don't know.
Last edited by Peter-H on Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Big Ben
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#68 Post by Big Ben » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:42 pm

Peter-H wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:33 pm
If it's true that he made a movie this human and beautiful and turned it into some sadistic trick then that makes me think he's kind of a bad person. Although this interview seems to suggests he's sincere so I don't know: https://www.criterion.com/current/posts ... -the-waves
I have, and will go to bat for several of von Trier's films though. I was one of the few people who defended Antichrist when it came out (I was in a very close minded College at the time.) and I can tell you nothing in that film made me as uneasy as Breaking the Waves did. All the grotesque mutilations aside I accepted at the time what I interpreted to be metaphor. Breaking the Waves on the other hand just sort of screws the pooch in my opinion. Maybe I'm just an asshole? I don't know. I suppose it comes down to whether or not you will or will not buy what von Trier is selling.

Peter-H
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#69 Post by Peter-H » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:13 pm

"I don't know. I suppose it comes down to whether or not you will or will not buy what von Trier is selling."

Sure people can agree with his point but why would anyone want that point conveyed via a mean spirited 2 hour and 40 minute prank?

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mfunk9786
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#70 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:24 pm

The film is obviously trying to convey that regardless of how much sincerity and innocence we might have, whatever higher power or nature that has control over our lives will have its own ideas. Not sure if that's cruel, and it's a theme that carries through much of von Trier's work - not as a prank on the audience, but as a way of finding a provocative way of getting the audience to engage with such a disappointing and sad concept

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Big Ben
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#71 Post by Big Ben » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:56 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:24 pm
The film is obviously trying to convey that regardless of how much sincerity and innocence we might have, whatever higher power or nature that has control over our lives will have its own ideas. Not sure if that's cruel, and it's a theme that carries through much of von Trier's work - not as a prank on the audience, but as a way of finding a provocative way of getting the audience to engage with such a disappointing and sad concept
Speaking for myself here but I would argue that an omniscient being not helping is a pretty terrible thing to do. I feel personally that it's worse with the religious angle because a being with the power to intervene and repeatedly choosing not to do so is not an all loving being. von Trier's apparent Atheism is what strikes me now as most disingenuous because this is very much a religious film that I've always felt was sincere right up until those bells start ringing and it just feels wrong. I'll defend things like Dogville, Antichrist and even Manderlay because they're at least, I felt, honest in their convictions about how terrible (Manderlay's message about how America is unwilling to accept black people is as prescient as ever.) everything is.

I think Breaking the Waves is due a revisit from me.

Peter-H
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#72 Post by Peter-H » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:29 pm

I actually don't have as much as a problem with God not intervening because there are some theological arguments for why he might allow bad things to happen. However the God in Breaking the Waves goes further than that because he's telling Bess to debase herself so he's actively causing these terrible things to happen.

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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#73 Post by bakofalltrades » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:15 am

Peter-H wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:29 pm
I actually don't have as much as a problem with God not intervening because there are some theological arguments for why he might allow bad things to happen. However the God in Breaking the Waves goes further than that because he's telling Bess to debase herself so he's actively causing these terrible things to happen.
Agree with the first part. That’s an age-old question/conundrum, and lightyears from being unique to Breaking the Waves.

Now, I wouldn’t go so far as to call it 100% unique, but that second part . . . *that* strikes me as von Trier-ian!

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colinr0380
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#74 Post by colinr0380 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:31 am

I think that is why I found the Bells of Heaven ending rather jarring, since it did not seem to me that God was vindictive and cruel in the film, just absent, and that it was all a bit more about the issues of someone being self directed in their goals (I have to do this because this will fix everything, even though I do not like it) set against a certain abdication of responsibility for one's actions (I have to do this because I am being told I have to, either by the men in my life or my own 'God voice') and how much they feed off each other to form the character's actions. (It is very much like the character in Dogville in that sense) I probably 'identify' the most with the character played by Katrin Cartlidge in this film, telling Bess how stupid she is being yet ironically her more practical, down to earth advice being overwhelmed as she is ultimately unable to intercede and 'save' Bess, either from the real figures of coercion in her life that hold such emotional power over her (the church, Jan's request) and from Bess's internal voice that is telling her to pursue her eventually fully destructive course. But I don't feel that character is meant to be the focus, just the one that I personally find the most interesting.

Yet there is a certain kind of beauty in endurance and eventual mortification (in all senses) there in Bess's journey, a giving up of her own desire for those of others, whether appreciated or not. Perhaps that is the reason for the bells at the end, that things have been literalised by Bess's sacrifice, celebrated and news of her sacrifice rings out to everyone, but the miracle that would make her a saint comes far too late after Bess is long gone from the world that for so long was so absent of any validation of her actions. At least Justine in Melancholia had her concerns (invocations?) about the end of the world validated whilst she was still around, even if it meant everyone else died at the end!

But I do find the ending interesting, although I still much prefer the ending of Dancer In The Dark which does a similar, and much less damaging to the previous action, thing.
Spoilers for Dancer in the DarkShow
In which Selma has difficulty transcending her upcoming execution in her musical fantasy and has her neck broken through hanging mid-way through singing to herself. Then the camera itself moves up through the roof and off into the credit sequence whilst Bjork sings New World, fully orchestrally backed, over the end credit images recapping the film. That sort of does the same 'celebration of a sacrifice' thing that Breaking The Waves does, but in a transcendently meta, outside of the universe of the film, manner.

Are we still in Bess's head at this point, even if she has transcended to another plain of existence? Is Heaven belatedly and ironically celebrating her martyrdom, when it does not really matter any more? Is it a cheeky nod at religion by the director, or even just a slightly too blunt way of trying to send the audience out of the cinema feeling a little as if the sacrifice they have witnessed has been for something after all? Or is it just that CGI unfortunately has a habit of bluntly literalising what might work better as subtly metaphorical? (Though 'explicit literalisation' has kind of become a key feature of Lars von Trier's work since Antichrist, so this might be better seen as a premonition of that)

Peter-H
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Re: 705 Breaking the Waves

#75 Post by Peter-H » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:40 pm

Perhaps Bess's sacrifice doesn't necessarily have any causal connection to her going to heaven; maybe the movie is saying that her sacrifice in and of itself was pointless and misguided but the fact that she was willing to do that shows that she's faithful and loving which is why she goes to heaven. In other words maybe she was rewarded for who she was not what she did.

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