575 The Killing

[manicsounds]

I got the release yesterday, and kinda disappointed that "Killer's Kiss" got the short end of the stick (HD picture yes, but Dolby mono audio, no essays or even print source information) but it is still nice to have 2 films for the price of 1. Now when will "Fear And Desire" ever come out?

[taylora98]

At a Kubrick symposium in the UK last year Jan Harlan advised that any decision regarding releasing F&D was, in the first instance, one for Christiane Kubrick and her surviving daughters. This would need to happen before any studio/label would be able to officially release.

[Tribe]

The Sterling Hayden interview on this release is superb! Aside from the insight into his career and his regrets about outing commies in Hollywood, he talks just like one of his hard-boiled characters.

[mteller]

Yeah, I felt like I wanted him to be my cool grandpa.

[Tom Hagen]

My favorite Sterling Hayden line of all time is "How's the I-talian food in this restaurant?" Kills me every time.

[Thomas Dukenfield]

I got the release yesterday, and kinda disappointed that "Killer's Kiss" got the short end of the stick (HD picture yes, but Dolby mono audio, no essays or even print source information)

Well, the original mix was mono, was it not? If there was going to be some supplements for Killer's Kiss, I would've liked to see something that looks at the film as an extension of Kubrick's NY photography (or some sort of comparison). There might already be some material out there like that.

[Roger Ryan]

I got the release yesterday, and kinda disappointed that "Killer's Kiss" got the short end of the stick (HD picture yes, but Dolby mono audio, no essays or even print source information)

Well, the original mix was mono, was it not?

I think what manicsounds is getting at is that the KILLER'S KISS soundtrack is in standard Dolby mono instead of being uncompressed mono like the soundtrack for THE KILLING. For it to be uncompressed, more disc space would be used and I would rather that space went to ensuring both films look as good as Blu-ray can offer.

[hearthesilence]

Yeah, I agree. Ideally, an uncompressed track would be nice, but to be harsh, the soundtrack for Killer's Kiss is nothing to write home about, nor is the dialogue. It's a lot better to see than to hear, so reserving data space for PQ is all right with me.

(BTW, I saw this for the first time on Criterion's BD and mistook the first shot of Albert, the fight manager, at the boxing gym as a rear projection. "Wow, this really is low budget - they just used stock footage instead of a set or a location!" Then later on, using the same setup, we see Albert still at the gym, this time standing in the 'background' before moving into the foreground to use the phone - the same position he was in during the earlier shot. The lighting was just different and the focus a bit sharper in the foreground. Anyway, thought that was funny...

If you want to see what I mean, go to 4:10 during this clip.

The transfer really sucks, the foreground looks mushy instead of sharper than the background, so it's tougher to make the same mistake I did, but at least you can see the difference in lighting.)

[matrixschmatrix]

The Sterling Hayden interview on this release is superb! Aside from the insight into his career and his regrets about outing commies in Hollywood, he talks just like one of his hard-boiled characters.

Yeah, finally got to watch this, and I was a bit let down by the movie- largely because I was expecting it to measure up to Paths of Glory, which I think is an absurd yardstick- but that interview is absolutely fabulous. One of the rare tough-guy actors who comes off as a tough but likable person in real life, and self-deprecating without attacking movies as an artform.

[dustybooks]

Yeah, finally got to watch this, and I was a bit let down by the movie- largely because I was expecting it to measure up to Paths of Glory, which I think is an absurd yardstick-

I remember having the exact same feeling years ago when I initially saw The Killing, but as time goes by I find the opposite view's taken hold. There's something about the oddness of the characters and their many eccentric little moments in this movie that sweeps me up more every time I see it; initially I felt it fit the Kubrick stereotype of No Empathy for Anyone, but the crooks who populate the story (Sterling Hayden's character above all, but even Elisha Cook's to some extent) have unfurled with time, at least for me, as more complex and troubled than was immediately clear. Plus, even across all of the thrillers that momentarily place identification with murderers and thieves, I have never wanted the baddies to get away with it as much as I want Hayden to escape at the end of this film. Kills me every time. Paths of Glory is still great, and clearly a more emotional film, but I don't know, it somehow doesn't seem to contain as much stuff* as The Killing.

* tried for ten minutes to think of a better word, didn't work.

[saji1986]

Finally got around to watching this - loved it!

The interview with Sterling Hayden was in my opinion, very fascinating. How refreshing to see somone be so blunt and direct, not only answering questions indicting the status quo of Hollywood, but to also implicate himself as part of the "regime" as well. I would of loved to have to have heard more from him. Kudos to Criterion, very well done release.

[HistoryProf]

rewatched the Hayden interview segments tonight, and they may be my favorite supplement on any dvd i've ever owned. Utterly and completely enthralling - primarily for how incredibly unfettered he is. He has that similar detachment from the industry that Mitchum has, but it's elevated by the fact that he truly doesn't seem to give a fuck, and is willing to be completely self-deprecating. I could watch hours of that man just smoking and talking.

The film's pretty damned good too. I hadn't seen it in years, and I remembered the snapshot of the ending, but not how we got there. It's damned near perfectly executed....and for a director so young doing this in an era so hostile to non-linear storytelling (as Hayden reiterates, the script was a bit of a joke at the time), it's really a fascinating example of a how hollywood was changing, however begrudgingly. Great stuff, and clearly a milestone for Criterion.

What a great way to start the year for me. finished the Hayden interview at 11:47...poured two fingers of a good bourbon, watched the ball drop, and popped in Kiss Me Deadly

[Emak-Bakia]

Yeah, I agree. Ideally, an uncompressed track would be nice, but to be harsh, the soundtrack for Killer's Kiss is nothing to write home about, nor is the dialogue. It's a lot better to see than to hear, so reserving data space for PQ is all right with me.

(BTW, I saw this for the first time on Criterion's BD and mistook the first shot of Albert, the fight manager, at the boxing gym as a rear projection. "Wow, this really is low budget - they just used stock footage instead of a set or a location!" Then later on, using the same setup, we see Albert still at the gym, this time standing in the 'background' before moving into the foreground to use the phone - the same position he was in during the earlier shot. The lighting was just different and the focus a bit sharper in the foreground. Anyway, thought that was funny...

If you want to see what I mean, go to 4:10 during this clip.

The transfer really sucks, the foreground looks mushy instead of sharper than the background, so it's tougher to make the same mistake I did, but at least you can see the difference in lighting.)

I, respectfully, couldn't disagree more with the first part of your post regarding the sound of Killer's Kiss. I've got a lot to say about the second part, too, but allow me to take one thing at a time. I was actually just about to post the below text as a general post, but I think it also serves as a response to your criticism of the sound quality. Here goes:

I’ve been trying to formulate a post about Killer’s Kiss for some time, but it’s a film that fascinates me so much that I tend to get carried away once I start writing about it. I apologize if this isn’t the right thread for such a thing, but I’d really like to get a discussion about it going on here. Mods, feel free to move this if you see it fit to do so.

To select just one thing that I love about Killer’s Kiss, it would have to be the perfect evocation of loneliness. It’s the different ways that Kubrick manages to create this mood that is ripe for dissection. To narrow the topic of this post further, I will attempt to focus on the use of sound as it relates to this mood in Killer’s Kiss.

I find it interesting that Geoffrey O’Brien, in his “video appreciation” extra on the Criterion release, notes that the story of Killer’s Kiss resembles that of a silent film. Coincidently, I’ve several times seen it noted (in the frustratingly small number of writings on Killers Kiss that I’ve been able to find) that the sound in Killer’s Kiss was entirely dubbed in post-production. The reasoning for this is allegedly that Kubrick was unhappy with the quality of the audio recorded on location or the way the boom mike interfered with the lighting setup, but I have to wonder if dubbing so much of the picture wasn’t Kubrick’s intent from the beginning. As a bit of an aside, I am curious, to learn how common this practice was at the time of the film’s production, so I’d appreciate it if someone could fill me in on this particular bit of film history. I’ve seen plenty of films from this era, but I guess I never paid such close attention to the sound.

In any event, what this means is that Killer’s Kiss was filmed as a silent movie. This is significant because I’ve always felt that there is some sort of inherent loneliness in silent cinema (I feel that this is a subject that has undoubtedly been written about elsewhere, so I would also appreciate it if someone could point me in the direction of further reading on this subject). I attribute this to several things: the inescapable feeling of saudade that accompanies the past, the lack of the human voice and environmental sounds, and even the way the blacks of the black and white photography blend with the off screen space (in an ideal cinema or home theater setup) to create a void onto which the image is being projected. Most of this should be saved for a different discussion. It’s that lack of the human voice and sound effects, though, that relates to the topic at hand.

The fact that the audio in Killer’s Kiss is dubbed is, for the most part, not noticeable. At least not with a casual viewing. Upon closer inspection, though, it becomes apparent that the viewer is never exposed to the entire spectrum of sounds of the city. First, Kubrick either picks out one or two effects to fill out an environment. There’s always this feeling that something is missing. For instance, the film is peppered with gorgeous montages of the city streets. Consider the second one, which depicts what looks like Times Square at night in addition to other nocturnal wonders: a Santa Clause automaton in a shop window, a close-up of hot dogs keeping warm under heat lamps, a closed photographers studio lit only by a neon sign, a lone ticket taker pent up in a one-man box office at a late night movie theater, etc. This entire sequence is devoid of the natural sounds of the city. Instead, what the viewer hears is one continuous, dull hiss resembling the sound of a scratchy old record caught in the runout groove. Is it a coincidence that the shot bridging the gap between this sequence and the next is a close up of a record spinning? It’s possible that this sound is merely the result of poor recording technology, but the lo-fi texture perfectly suits the gritty atmosphere of the film. Next, a select few subtle sounds are added to give the scene the pulse of city life: a blow of a whistle is heard twice (presumably belonging to a traffic guard), what sounds like an old car sputtering lightly, a single car horn, and the sound of paper tearing is synchronized with the visual of the ticket taker ripping tickets. The cumulative effect is subtly unreal and yet, somehow, it does not detract, from the quality of the film, but instead proves to be the perfect accompaniment to Kubrick’s beautiful photography. On this forum, I’ve seen Killer’s Kiss referred to as a city symphony. I think it’s these exterior sequences, with their expressionistic marriage of the aural and visual components capturing a lost place and time, that make Killer’s Kiss a city symphony.

Of course, the influence of Expressionism on film noir (and Killer’s Kiss by extension) is well known. While I don’t have a great amount of depth in my knowledge of film noir (in comparison to many of the posters on this forum. This is something I’m working on changing), I consistently find myself floored by the way music (diegetic and non-diegetic) is used in Killer’s Kiss, because it seems to often be purely expressionistic. It’s important to first note that Killer’s Kiss is very much a movie comprised of several repeated, broad musical themes. Each character has his own theme music that at times fits with the diegesis of the film, but at others it becomes evident that this music is not of the film’s environment at all. For instance, I can’t help shake the impression that Rapallo’s theme, the discordant Latin-sounding piece that is repeatedly used when Rapallo is angry, emanates from his body. The music is so perfectly in sync with Rapallo’s mental state, that it’s almost as if the soundwaves are visible as they flow from his head. To name another instance of this stunning pairing of sight and sound, I have to point to the shots of the dance hall, which is seen on two or three occasions throughout the film, but always in the exact same way. The camera slowly pans along one side of the dance floor, couples eternally slow dancing to the same melancholy (this word doesn’t even begin to describe it) saxophone. They’re always dancing to the same song, desperately hoping to not feel alone for just one moment. It’s as if they’re all trapped in some sort of museum of loneliness. Dare I say it, but I think it's one of the most beautiful shots I've ever seen in any film.

I have 100 other tangents that I’m itching to dive into, but I don’t want to get ahead of myself. Please excuse the disorganized, rambling nature of this post. I really just wanted to get some thoughts written down. At the very least, I hope my enthusiasm for the film is evident and will motivate others to either watch the film or reconsider it. I’ve had a difficult time finding much in depth writing on Killer’s Kiss, so if you have any recommendations, please send them my way.

[Roger Ryan]

...I’ve several times seen it noted (in the frustratingly small number of writings on Killers Kiss that I’ve been able to find) that the sound in Killer’s Kiss was entirely dubbed in post-production. The reasoning for this is allegedly that Kubrick was unhappy with the quality of the audio recorded on location or the way the boom mike interfered with the lighting setup, but I have to wonder if dubbing so much of the picture wasn’t Kubrick’s intent from the beginning. As a bit of an aside, I am curious, to learn how common this practice was at the time of the film’s production, so I’d appreciate it if someone could fill me in on this particular bit of film history. I’ve seen plenty of films from this era, but I guess I never paid such close attention to the sound.

It has remained common practice from the 30s through today to post-synchronize, or dub, dialogue for scenes shot outside or in real locations with noisy environments or poor acoustics. Films outside of the Hollywood mainstream have an even higher ratio of post-synched audio (unless we're considering more recent "mumblecore" films which often use in-camera sound). Italian films were 100% post-synched for decades (even highly-touted productions like Fellini's). Given that KILLER'S KISS was an independent low-budget production, it's likely that Kubrick simply did not have the resources to record live sound. But since much of the film was shot on location, Kubrick would have had difficulty controlling the sound anyway and would have had to post-synch much of it. With that in mind, it was likely a money-related decision to forgo with live sound recording during the shoot, just as Kubrick had done on his previous independent effort FEAR AND DESIRE.

The low budget nature of the production would have also affected how much time could be spent doing foley work on the soundtrack (recreating the sounds of the city, footsteps, doors closing, etc.). The result is a soundtrack that is probably sparser than it should be, but also might be considered a pleasant stylization and an attribute.

For me, KILLER'S KISS represents Kubrick just starting to become a competent filmmaker (whereas I find FEAR AND DESIRE to be quite incompetent), but there are still some clumsy moments in it that suggest Kubrick didn't quite have a handle on the craft of filmmaking yet even though some of his ideas were good ones. He made a major leap with his next film.

[Emak-Bakia]

Thanks for the response. I kind of knew it was a stretch when I wrote that Killer's Kiss is a sort of silent film, but, as I said, I just wanted to get my thoughts out there, in an almost stream of consciousness fashion. I hope it wasn't too obnoxious to read.

Anyway, I definitely agree that Killer's Kiss isn't the work of the master that Kubrick would soon become. It's got certain moments that I find to be just unexplainable. For instance, what’s with Davey giving the viewers/himself the middle finger when he’s looking in the mirror in the third scene? I can’t figure out if this was planned or if it went unnoticed by Kubrick at the time of filming. Also, when Davey reads his uncle’s letter on the subway, the voiceover of his uncle is just downright sappy, and really distracts from the mood. There are lots of little flaws like this that I find easy to overlook in light of the generally well-established mood. The biggest flaw, I’d say, is the entire sequence in which Davey first meets Gloria. At least 10 minutes thereafter is spent on Davey and Gloria talking, mostly Gloria talking about her past, and, of course, there’s the ballet sequence. To be frank, this whole attempt at establishing a romance between the two bores me to the point that I usually skip over it. So, yeah, I can definitely understand where people are coming from when (such as on the Geoffrey O’Brien piece) they call Killer’s Kiss a student film. You can definitely see that Kubrick is still learning, which alone makes it a fascinating film. It’s very rough around the edges and isn’t always successful, but when it’s successful it does so remarkably.

As for Fear and Desire, I still haven’t watched it (or Kubrick's early shorts), since I’ve been waiting for the rumored blu ray release I’ve been hearing so much about.

SpoilerShow

EDIT: Concerning flaws in Killer's Kiss, how can I forget perhaps the most glaring: the meeting of the two lovers at the train station at the end. I’m pretty much convinced (and I think it’s generally agreed upon) that this tacked on happy ending was studio imposed. This is probably starting to sound a tad absurd ( ), but I always just stop the movie before Gloria comes running in and the music starts swelling, thus ending the film perfectly with Davey alone in the train station.

[tachyonEvan]

Very intrigued by this set, especially since it's an opportunity to watch two Kubrick movies I haven't seen (though, to be honest, I haven't seen anything pre-Spartacus) but based on what I've read here and elsewhere, it doesn't seem especially "great," or at least not near on par with his later work - especially, it seems, Killer's Kiss. Worth checking out when I have lots of other things to watch, or just a niche piece for Kubrick enthusiasts?

[Drucker]

Very intrigued by this set, especially since it's an opportunity to watch two Kubrick movies I haven't seen (though, to be honest, I haven't seen anything pre-Spartacus) but based on what I've read here and elsewhere, it doesn't seem especially "great," or at least not near on par with his later work - especially, it seems, Killer's Kiss. Worth checking out when I have lots of other things to watch, or just a niche piece for Kubrick enthusiasts?

I can't speak for Killer's Kiss, Fear and Desire, and the like, but Paths of Glory is probably my second favorite of his films, and while perhaps not as large in scope as 2001 or Dr. Strangelove, but it is no less powerful. The Killing is also fantastic, smart, and a lot of fun. But Paths of Glory I highly recommend up there with all of his best work.

[Roger Ryan]

The films are short too, so it doesn't take long to watch them

Kubrick's style developed over time with LOLITA being the transitional work. That film still has some of the glossier, old-Hollywood style that Kubrick had relied on since THE KILLING before a colder, more detached approach took hold completely. Apart from the out-of-place rough American accents, PATHS OF GLORY is remarkable in its technical precision yet is probably Kubrick's most emotionally affecting film. THE KILLING is a really fun noir caper film heightened by its inventive structure. If you like Kubrick, these are worth seeing...and, for me, are more enjoyable than SPARTACUS.

KILLER'S KISS, FEAR AND DESIRE and the shorts are the ones that are interesting curios for Kubrick enthusiasts but little more.

SpoilerShow

EDIT: Concerning flaws in Killer's Kiss, how can I forget perhaps the most glaring: the meeting of the two lovers at the train station at the end. I’m pretty much convinced (and I think it’s generally agreed upon) that this tacked on happy ending was studio imposed. This is probably starting to sound a tad absurd ( ), but I always just stop the movie before Gloria comes running in and the music starts swelling, thus ending the film perfectly with Davey alone in the train station.

As to KILLER'S KISS: I don't think the "studio", United Artists in this case, had any influence on the film whatsoever; they simply agreed to distribute the independently-financed film after Kubrick finished it.

[Emak-Bakia]

As to KILLER'S KISS: I don't think the "studio", United Artists in this case, had any influence on the film whatsoever; they simply agreed to distribute the independently-financed film after Kubrick finished it.

Interesting. I know that Killer's Kiss was independently financed, so it occured to me that the ending might not have been directly enforced by the studio, but I feel like Kubrick must have added on the happy ending so that he could attract the major distribution deal. Of course, this is all speculation. Is there any hard evidence to suggest one way or the other?

[AlexHansen]

I'd recommend KILLER'S KISS simply because it contains so many hints of things to come in Kubrick's work. There's a proto-Star Gate sequence and a fight featuring an assault with a fragmented body part, an ax, and jousting *I admit to only taking note of the jousting; the other two were apparently too obvious to spot until someone else mentioned it*. Add in Kubrick handling the cinematography himself and baby, you got a stew going.

[tachyonEvan]

I'd recommend KILLER'S KISS simply because it contains so many hints of things to come in Kubrick's work. There's a proto-Star Gate sequence and a fight featuring an assault with a fragmented body part, an ax, and jousting *I admit to only taking note of the jousting; the other two were apparently too obvious to spot until someone else mentioned it*. Add in Kubrick handling the cinematography himself and baby, you got a stew going.

Hahaha, love the AD reference.

[Niale]

I personally found Fear and Desire to be a revelation. Its a kurosawa film through and through!
Even has a trademark screen wipe going for it. Obviously The Killing was also kurosawa (Rashomon) influenced.
But better then both of these films is killers kiss. Why? because its a film bursting with incredibly rich visuals.
The scene where "the wrong man" gets backed down an ally by thugs and his shoe flys back as he is sacked, there is no
shot of such power in The Killing.Not to mention the tracking shot of the girl walking down a busy new york street... its a dazzling shot! Further more I don't really like The Killing all that much, and its not for lack of watching it or
"getting" it. I would rather watch day of the fight or Killers Kiss, as they are both lesser in some respect... But more creative.
I have the feeling that kubrick was trying to reign himself in while making The Killing.

[bringmesomechemicals]

Coincidently, I’ve several times seen it noted (in the frustratingly small number of writings on Killers Kiss that I’ve been able to find) that the sound in Killer’s Kiss was entirely dubbed in post-production. The reasoning for this is allegedly that Kubrick was unhappy with the quality of the audio recorded on location or the way the boom mike interfered with the lighting setup, but I have to wonder if dubbing so much of the picture wasn’t Kubrick’s intent from the beginning.

Given that KILLER'S KISS was an independent low-budget production, it's likely that Kubrick simply did not have the resources to record live sound. But since much of the film was shot on location, Kubrick would have had difficulty controlling the sound anyway and would have had to post-synch much of it. With that in mind, it was likely a money-related decision to forgo with live sound recording during the shoot, just as Kubrick had done on his previous independent effort FEAR AND DESIRE.

James B. Harris, in the interview included with the release, notes that Killer's Kiss was shot with a "wild" soundtrack and then fully redubbed afterwards.

On an entirely different topic that also came up as I was combing the supplements, I immediately disagreed with the following quote from Haden Guest's essay regarding how the brief amiability between Timothy Carey's character and the black parking lot attendant is spoiled by Carey's abrupt use of a racial epithet: "Yet just as suddenly, Kubrick and über-hard-boiled novelist Jim Thompson’s screenplay subverts and renders ironic the social-problem formula evoked so effectively, with Carey’s demented killer unleashing a viscously casual racist barb that reveals his seemingly enlightened sympathies to be simply a convenient guise, a mocking echo of the clown mask donned by heist ringleader Johnny Clay (Sterling Hayden) during the climactic robbery."

I don't know that there is any real reason to suspect that Carey's character (Nikky) is truly racist based on this exchange and that his apparent empathy was just a guise. Of course, his tale of being a paraplegic is a cover and a mask that coincidentally (and ultimately unhappily for Nikky) strikes a chord with the attendant who has a bum leg, but it must be remembered that the motivation for the paraplegic cover is his task as part of the heist's overall scheme. Likewise, as the crucial moment approaches and Nikky requires solitude to shoot the horse, the attendant interrupts, horseshoe in hand. The timing being so essential, Nikky has few options at hand to force the attendant away short of physical violence. Thus, he resorts to using the racial epithet as an immediate burning of any latent empathetic bridges that may have been constructed by way of the shared war experience and injuries. Had Nikky managed an escape from the parking lot without being identified, it would have proved a very deft handling of the situation (from a criminal's POV) as the attendant was unlikely to find that type of blunt racism all that remarkable at the time (I will not comment on whether a paraplegic who came to watch the races and had a bet on the very horse that was killed would have drawn attention of the constabulary. Oh wait, I just did.). The slur probably would have been just another example of race relations coming back to earth after the return from war when there may have been more opportunity for a character like the attendant to have had positive experiences with white soldiers. I imagine that there are more atheists in fox holes than there are racists, when your life depends on your brother in arms who happens to have a different skin tone to yours.

But what does Nikky's use of the slur really say about his own feelings? Is Nikky a cold-hearted character incapable of striking up a relationship with someone of another race or was the slur merely expedient as I have illustrated? The answer can be found earlier in the picture when Sterling Hayden's character (Johnny Clay) first visits with Nikky at the shooting range. Nikky is hired to kill a horse and does so without expressing any moral qualms about it so long as the money is good ($5,000 seemed to be enough). Again, is this because Nikky is merely expedient and takes the opportunity to make money or is he a cold-hearted man without regard to the welfare of animals? The signs again point to expediency as the motivation of Nikky's actions rather than telling us anything about his feelings, one way or the other, about animal welfare. As he is coldly discussing the murder of a horse, Nikky lovingly strokes a puppy he carries throughout the scene. In the same way, no information lets us conclude that Nikky's sympathies were "a convenient guise" or that they were not. All that we conclude is that if he did have sympathies, they were subverted by the needs of situation. I am curious to see how others viewed this scene, whether it was seen as cruel, clever, offensive, or otherwise. Thanks!

[Aspect]

I always thought Nikki was just trying to get rid of the parking lot attendant because he needed to take the shot. There is no evidence to suggest he was racist. The scene was meant to ratchet up tension and that was the release. It showed how far a criminal can go to do what he needs to do. Anyone who gets in the way is liable to get hurt in the most painful manner. Nikki had one goal in mind - do his job. He needed the parking lot attendant to leave him alone. So yes, like you said, expedience.

[bainbridgezu]

Edit: Aspect beat me to it.