5, 185-188 The 400 Blows, The Adventures of Antoine Doinel

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dad1153
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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#101 Post by dad1153 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:53 pm

excalibunny wrote:Should I wait to see if they release the box set? I've seen the film, but I just don't know if it's getting a re release in the box set.
I got the Antoine Doinel Box Set on the last Criterion sale. The BD is a noticeable but not Earth-shaking improvement over the DVD in the Box Set, plus the BD doesn't have "Antoine and Colette" (which now that I've seen it's an indispensable companion piece). Personally I'm keeping the BD and the "400 Blows" disc in the Doinel Box Set because I love this movie and because Criterion is taking its sweet time upgrading catalogue Box Sets to Blu-ray (and who knows if "Antoine and Colette" will even be part of such an unkwnown upgrade).

Sequel

Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#102 Post by Sequel » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:52 am

So if I order it off Amazon does anyone know if it'll be in a plastic case or the digipak?

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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#103 Post by TedW » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:18 pm

You can always get the plastic case from the C store. That's what I did.

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Matango
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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#104 Post by Matango » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:21 am

The Panorama Blu-ray edition of The 400 Blows is a port of the Criterion transfer, and avaialble much more cheaply. No extras, but worth slipping in your Antoine Doinel box set as a low-cost compromise.

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tachyonEvan
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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#105 Post by tachyonEvan » Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:54 pm

Something I haven’t seen discussed, and am interested in (disclaimer: The 400 Blows is the only “Doinel film” I’ve seen) is that both times I’ve seen this movie, Antoine struck me as either a textbook “gifted kid” and/or is clearly suffering from ADHD. I know the character is semiautobiographical, but some Googling of Truffaut and ADD/ADHD didn’t really yield any results. What’s interesting, though, is how accurately he portrays a kid so out of place – based on my own experiences/those around me, a lot of Antoine’s decision-making and behavior would be explained by either/both, and Truffaut (and more accurately, Jean-Pierre Léaud) nailed it to a T – from the way he holds his head in certain scenes, to a lot of the character’s mannerisms, and dialogue. I’m just not sure whether or not that was his intention, which makes things especially interesting. I’m not sure how familiar others on this board are with gifted education or behavior of kids with attention deficit disorders., but it’s an aspect of the movie that I absolutely couldn’t ignore.

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knives
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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#106 Post by knives » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:02 pm

He's just a kid. There's nothing special about him. He can be obnoxious and he can be likeable. Bringing modern psychology to the film seems to be missing the point.

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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#107 Post by warren oates » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:04 pm

I disagree, knives. First of all, that's a pretty incisive retroactive diagnosis. I've never thought of Antoine this way, but it seems pretty dead-on to me. Second of all, if this is coming from your own personal experience, then I'm starting to get a handle on your taste a little bit better. If you're grappling with ADHD, I can see how you'd have problems with slower films. And how faster more frenetic art films like Breathless or even A Separation could be easier to get into.

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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#108 Post by Drucker » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:06 pm

As someone with ADHD, who was taking medication from age 6 until...3 weeks ago, I have never gotten that reading. I also don't think anyone knew about ADHD back when this film was made...what strikes you as ADD about him? I always just read the kid as unfortunately is a product of a broken home and needs to escape.

Gifted kids in my experience are often very lazy but do well on things like tests...which he doesn't...

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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#109 Post by mfunk9786 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:08 pm

This forum has become "Let's comment specifically on exactly what films tachyonEvan has seen and how they all inter-relate" thanks to warren oates. Looking forward to his next screening so we have more rubber bands to add to the ball! Just let the kid watch movies and post reviews, fer chrissakes, without bringing up what you thought of the last 5 that he watched since you're so much more evolved.

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knives
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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#110 Post by knives » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:09 pm

warren oates wrote:I disagree, knives. First of all, that's a pretty incisive retroactive diagnosis. I've never thought of Antoine this way, but it seems pretty dead-on to me. Second of all, if this is coming from your own personal experience, then I'm starting to get a handle on your taste a little bit better. If you're grappling with ADHD, I can see how you'd have problems with slower films. And how faster more frenetic art films like Breathless or even A Separation could be easier to get into.
The film makes a huge point out of Antoine not needing to be diagnosed and not having a disease. His psychology reminds me more of the book version of Alex from A Clockwork Orange where he is merely suffering from growing pains in an extraordinary way and attempting to pull him apart won't do him any good.

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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#111 Post by mfunk9786 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:12 pm

ADD/ADHD is far more frequently misdiagnosed nowadays than it ever would have been then, anyway, due to exactly what's going on with Doinel - a kid just being a kid, and struggling with his own growth, having their youthful struggle confused with a psychological disorder.

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warren oates
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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#112 Post by warren oates » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:22 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:This forum has become "Let's comment specifically on exactly what films tachyonEvan has seen and how they all inter-relate" thanks to warren oates. Looking forward to his next screening so we have more rubber bands to add to the ball! Just let the kid watch movies and post reviews, fer chrissakes, without bringing up what you thought of the last 5 that he watched since you're so much more evolved.
Actually, noticing the tastes and proclivities of frequent posters is one of the pleasures of this forum for me, mfunk. One of the first rubber bands in my mfunk ball was Michael, and to me you'll always be the guy who started that thread!

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tachyonEvan
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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#113 Post by tachyonEvan » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:27 pm

knives wrote:He's just a kid. There's nothing special about him. He can be obnoxious and he can be likeable. Bringing modern psychology to the film seems to be missing the point.
There’s nothing special about him?
warren oates wrote:I disagree, knives. First of all, that's a pretty incisive retroactive diagnosis. I've never thought of Antoine this way, but it seems pretty dead-on to me. Second of all, if this is coming from your own personal experience, then I'm starting to get a handle on your taste a little bit better. If you're grappling with ADHD, I can see how you'd have problems with slower films. And how faster more frenetic art films like Breathless or even A Separation could be easier to get into.
I appreciate that you see value in my interpretation, but I've just got to say - you do understand how condescending your last sentence comes across, yes?
Drucker wrote:Gifted kids in my experience are often very lazy but do well on things like tests...which he doesn't...
Not quite. Davidson is probably the best source I could link you to if you’re interested in knowing more, but it’s actually alarming how often gifted kids perform very poorly in school.
mfunk9786 wrote:ADD/ADHD is far more frequently misdiagnosed nowadays than it ever would have been then, anyway, due to exactly what's going on with Doinel - a kid just being a kid, and struggling with his own growth, having their youthful struggle confused with a psychological disorder.
I’m claiming nothing re: what he would have/should have been disagnosed with back then. Kids have suffered from the attention deficit since long before it was widely (mis)diagnosed. I’m saying that the character/actor reminded me a great deal of people I’ve known throughout my life with attention deficit or who belonged in gifted programs. I didn’t make any absolute claims or try to pin down “exactly what’s going on” with him. Just offered a suggestion based on my experience of the film, which is, of course, influenced by the experience and information I brought into it.

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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#114 Post by mfunk9786 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:28 pm

warren oates wrote:
mfunk9786 wrote:This forum has become "Let's comment specifically on exactly what films tachyonEvan has seen and how they all inter-relate" thanks to warren oates. Looking forward to his next screening so we have more rubber bands to add to the ball! Just let the kid watch movies and post reviews, fer chrissakes, without bringing up what you thought of the last 5 that he watched since you're so much more evolved.
Actually, noticing the tastes and proclivities of frequent posters is one of the pleasures of this forum for me, mfunk. One of the first rubber bands in my mfunk ball was Michael, and to me you'll always be the guy who started that thread!
Oh, I know what you mean, for sure - but it doesn't seem fair to bring up A Separation every time tachyonEvan chimes in on a film, as if being blown away by it is something he needs to be cured of or move past. It just comes off as condescending, and he's certainly not alone in thinking that is, at the very least, a very strong film. It's an odd example of something to not be willing to let go of.

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Michael
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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#115 Post by Michael » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:40 pm

I'm sorry but why would you want to slap Antoine with medical labels? A poignant scene late in the film with Antoine answering to questions at the juvenile prison should tell you everything you need to know about him. He pours his heart out in that scene. He came from a broken home with ZERO sense of love, security and stability. What happened to his biological father? His mother was phony and selfish. Antoine caught his mother cheating with a guy. How did you think that make him feel? He just grew up too fast and lost innocence too early.
Last edited by Michael on Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#116 Post by tachyonEvan » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:45 pm

What I'm doing here is clearly being misinterpreted. I'm not trying to "slap" anything on Antoine or look for answers or assert my opinion. I'm just fully aware that this is a movie that has been revered and discussed for half a century, and I have very little to add to the collective conversation about it. I didn't set out trying to "figure out" Antoine. It's a thought/reaction I had to the film/character on my first - and subsequent - viewings, and I wanted to pose it to the community.

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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#117 Post by Mr Sausage » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:21 pm

I always got the impression that Antoine was a smart kid. Maybe not gifted, but above average, and this results in his general boredom in school. I think his behaviour is much better explained by the specific circumstances of his life than a disorder. Someone with ADD or ADHD is going to act out in specific tell-tale ways regardless of their upbringing or home situation. Antoine is acting specifically against the situation he is in.

Smart kid, rebellious attitude, poor home-life, unsatisfactory school life--that's all the explanation you need. A disorder is superfluous.

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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#118 Post by warren oates » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:45 pm

That assumes that a clinical psychological take on a narrative like this is essentially reductive. This does seem to be a bit contrary to your Buffalo Bill line of argument in that other thread about Silence of the Lambs and Dressed to Kill. That Bill could attain specific individuality only through his diagnosis, but diagnosing Antoine would rob him of that individuality and agency. It's one thing to think Antoine doesn't have anything like ADHD. Quite another to say that if he did he'd be rendered some kind of robot and his story reduced to a case history. The disorder isn't superfluous if it illuminates facets of the precise way in which he's rebelling, as opposed to the way a constitutionally different child with an entirely different personality might. And I think that's why tachyonEvan raised this idea.

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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#119 Post by Drucker » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:58 pm

I think Mr. Sausage nailed it on the head (and isn't Truffaut drawing from personal experience from the character anyway?) and I still don't see any specific link between ADHD and Antoine at all. He doesn't have problems sitting still (the first time he's punished during recess would've been impossible, with him standing in one place for an hour, I assure you!), for example, nor does he really interrupt other people talking or seem to be impatient. All of these are things I know I still experience on a daily basis.

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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#120 Post by Mr Sausage » Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:26 pm

Warrenoates, your post so little resembles anything I said that I hardly even know where to begin. I think I am actually going to have to do this line by line. I'm really starting to envy posters who can make just one post and leave it at that without it spiraling into some big thing.
warren oates wrote:That assumes that a clinical psychological take on a narrative like this is essentially reductive.
I don't know why you're assuming an amateur ADHD diagnosis is either clinical or particularly psychological. Or how you think providing everything in the movie with one single, overarching, general term is going to avoid being reductive. It's possible I guess, but are you that sure you've accomplished it?
warren oates wrote: This does seem to be a bit contrary to your Buffalo Bill line of argument in that other thread about Silence of the Lambs and Dressed to Kill. That Bill could attain specific individuality only through his diagnosis, but diagnosing Antoine would rob him of that individuality and agency.
The movie supplied Gumb with a specific psychology. You and Tachyonevan are supplying Antoine with a generalized diagnosis yourselves. These things are only similar in bizarro world.
warren oates wrote: It's one thing to think Antoine doesn't have anything like ADHD. Quite another to say that if he did he'd be rendered some kind of robot and his story reduced to a case history.
This is the kind of statement that makes me wonder what post you were reading. I don't understand how you could go astray so badly--my post wasn't even that long! Rendered a robot? Reduced to a case history? Where are you getting all of this?
warren oates wrote:The disorder isn't superfluous if it illuminates facets of the precise way in which he's rebelling, as opposed to the way a constitutionally different child with an entirely different personality might.
It's superfluous if there is another, better explanation. For this argument to work, you'd have to believe that Antoine Doniel would not react to his circumstance the way that he does if he did not have ADHD. So now the following questions need to be answered: if he did not have ADHD, which situations would he have behaved differently in? What specific situations in the movie would he have reacted to differently? How, specifically, would his behaviour have differed in each scene?

Obviously, my answer is that ADHD isn't determining his reactions. I think all of his behaviours are already explained--and explained better--by his circumstances. I also think that not having ADHD explains how Antoine got through a whole Balzac novel in a day or two, considering people with that disorder generally have trouble paying attention even to thirty-minute television shows.

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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#121 Post by FilmFanSea » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:17 pm

My fear is that Antoine Doinel, if he were transported to 2012, would somehow meet the vague clinical criteria for ADD/ADHD or adjustment disorder or whatever, and would be medicated into an obedient (and artistically uninteresting) state as a result.

The essence of The 400 Blows to me is that Doinel is rather banal and certainly not a criminal, but the System (parents, teachers, social workers etc) overreacts to this mild boy and institutionalizes him. The authority figures demonstrate not a shred of compassion. Even though Truffaut stacks the deck against Antoine, emotionally the film still rings true. Truffaut perfectly captures adolescence from the perspective of the adolescent. I wish he'd never made another film about Doinel and left his fate in suspended animation, but I guess you can't have everything.

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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#122 Post by matrixschmatrix » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:48 pm

I think the reading that Doniel has some disorder that renders him different from most people, even in a subtle way as ADD would, reduces the degree to which he is both a very specific child in a specific situation and expression of the heartbreak of being a child in a world that does not and will never fully understand you, ever. He has difficulty paying attention to school because he's given nothing worth paying attention to and no means of connecting to the material, he has a difficult home life because his parents are awful, and he runs away because there's really nothing worth staying for. The rest of the world is disordered, not Antoine.

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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#123 Post by Michael » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:56 pm

matrixschmatrix, you nailed how I view Antoine.

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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#124 Post by warren oates » Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:53 pm

I appreciate the eloquence with which matrix, Sausage and others have written about Antoine's journey. But I guess I'm still a bit unclear on how a hypothetical diagnosis/classification of any personality trait or disorder for any character is reductive. I get that narrative and psychology have different approaches to the construction of character/personality. What I don't get is how the mere act of speculatively overlaying one approach with another is tantamount to explaining the truth of either away. (Which is entirely different from the question of whether this diagnosis is in any way accurate or befitting this character.)

I've had versions of this conversation before in the Michael thread and I suppose I don't find this sort of classification in and of itself to be problematic. It's just another way of looking at the mystery of a human life. And to imagine that a psychological diagnosis somehow solves a person seems as silly as holding that each of us is a radically singular snowflake, not the kind of boring, predictable types who could be made to fit into a clinical flowchart.

As to whether ADHD means one can sometimes manage the patience to read favorite novels, well, if you're in doubt about that, ask tachyonEvan, who seems to be an English major who has firsthand knowledge of the disorder.

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Re: 5 The 400 Blows

#125 Post by matrixschmatrix » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:46 pm

In Doniel's case, it's reductive because it presumes some reason for the behavior we see that isn't readily apparent in the situations and places we see. I mean, it's possible that he behaves the way he does because he has schizophrenia, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, and a bad case of the crabs, but there's nothing in the movie that really lends any credence to the argument. Interpreting what we do see of his behavior as evidence of a disorder, rather than a series of reasonable responses to given stimuli, reduces the impact of those stimuli and the degree to which his responses are entirely understandable and presumably what any bright, soulful child would feel and do.
Last edited by matrixschmatrix on Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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